$15/hr Min Wage - We told you so

[Cow Poke]

I do. I've experienced it from multiple employers, even in the private sector.

I don't want this to come across rude in any way, but as a longtime business owner, I'm not sure you've seen it from the other end of things for awhile.

I work every day with minimum wage people -- Among other things, I help run a "Jobs for Life" program twice a year helping them find work and training them to seek, interview for, and have the skills to keep jobs. You don't have a clue what my experience is.

The BIG DIFFERENCE between those who find and keep jobs is attitude. The guy who thinks "I'm going to take this job but they're screwing me" isn't going to last. The guy who goes in with a determination to make it work tends to excel.

[Cow Poke]

I don't want this to come across rude in any way, but as a longtime business owner, I'm not sure you've seen it from the other end of things for awhile.

I'm curious about the bolded part. What do you mean by that?

[Cow Poke]

So what? No one's arguing that they should take home a professional's salary - but it's also false that those are merely entry level jobs.

I'm re-reading through this whole thread, and trying to figure out where you're getting some of your claims. But, meanwhile, how can you say that a cashier job at Walmart is not "entry level"?

[Psychic Missile]

So, what determines what's "possible"? If I can get somebody to pick up sticks and rake leaves in my front yard for $1.00 an hour, should I, out of the goodness of my heart, pay $20 an hour "just because"?

Your job isn't meant as employment, so it doesn't really matter what you pay.

It's always easy for a man who doesn't own a company to come up with the rules for how somebody else who DOES own a company should run things.

This is a moronic statement. There's nothing wrong with criticizing systems and people without direct experience. You've done it plenty of times.

Yeah, it's called the "golden rule" (of business) -- whoever has the gold makes the rules. There is nothing keeping that employee from starting their own business and paying whatever wages they feel are just.

Nothing except starting capital and business sense.

[Psychic Missile]

it is their business not yours. you have no right to tell them how to run it. if you want to start your own business and treat your employees what you think is fair, then do it, compete wit the unfair employers and put them out of business or make them compete by paying their employers more.

This is idiotic as well. Do you think nobody had the right to criticize the Triangle Waist Company? An imbalance of power among employers and employees has resulted in the desire for a minimum wage. It's an issue that concerns our national well-being.

[Sparko]

The issue is the two sides are operating on unequal playing fields. When the only jobs available (even to those with degrees) are ones that barely or don't pay the bills, the prospective employee still has to catch on somewhere because unemployment isn't an option to most (like when I had to resort to stocking Walmart shelves overnight with a college degree because I simply couldn't find any other job). Just because somebody has to accept such a job begrudgingly, in my view, doesn't mean that they shouldn't have a problem because "they agreed to the job".

Though with more minimum wage laws Walmart would probably just speed the process of automating as many jobs out of existence as possible (while I was there, they tried to switch the overnight employees to half overnight positions, obviously to avoid paying pay differential; I refused to go along).

so you want to punish the companies that actually ARE providing jobs because there are no jobs available for degreed people? If there are no engineering firms hiring, you want to force a burger joint to pay engineering wages? Is it McDonalds fault that Boeing isn't hiring you? should they pick up the slack and hire aerospace engineers for $15/hour because they can't get a job at Boeing??

[Cow Poke]

Your job isn't meant as employment, so it doesn't really matter what you pay.

It certainly does to the person who wants the money.

This is a moronic statement. There's nothing wrong with criticizing systems and people without direct experience. You've done it plenty of times.

What's wrong is criticizing something you really don't understand - which you do pretty much every time you post.

Nothing except starting capital and business sense.

Yeah, much better to make yourself captive to "the system", and fully depend on others.

I had ZERO capital when I started my computer consulting business - my daughter had zero capital when, at age 7, she started her own candy business. As for "business sense", it doesn't take a Harvard education to know I need to find a need, and figure out a way to get paid to fill it.

You are all full of excuses and are typical of the guy who will always be beholden to somebody else.

[Cow Poke]

This is idiotic as well.

This is like Michael Moore calling me fat.

[Psychic Missile]

It certainly does to the person who wants the money.

You know what I mean. It's different from from regular employment.

What's wrong is criticizing something you really don't understand - which you do pretty much every time you post.

If I don't understand and you do you should be able to correct me, not resort to a fallacious, hypocritical statement.

Yeah, much better to make yourself captive to "the system", and fully depend on others.

I had ZERO capital when I started my computer consulting business - my daughter had zero capital when, at age 7, she started her own candy business. As for "business sense", it doesn't take a Harvard education to know I need to find a need, and figure out a way to get paid to fill it.

You are all full of excuses and are typical of the guy who will always be beholden to somebody else.

Most businesses do need capital, and the people who you expect to take your advice most likely don't have the savings to hold them over until profitability, let alone survive a failed business. You also have to take local demand of their specialty and knowledge to run a good business (which not everyone has!) into account. Plus, America's workforce can't be based on 250 million CEOs. There have to be employees, and those employees should be getting fairly compensated. Your advice just isn't theoretically feasible, let alone practical.

[Cow Poke]

If I don't understand and you do you should be able to correct me, not resort to a fallacious, hypocritical statement.

You are beyond correction.

Most businesses do need capital... .

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

and the people who you expect to take your advice most likely don't have the savings to hold them over until profitability

Wow.... I was working "somewhere else" when I started my businesses.... it requires a lot of dedication, which, apparently, is why it's not even in your realm of possibility. I'll leave the rest of your negativity and small mindedness....

[Psychic Missile]

Cow Poke, why enter into a discussion if you're unwilling to engage with people? Outside of blind agreement, what do you hope to get out of debate?

[Teallaura]

Wow... I think this explains a lot.



What you can't seem to comprehend is that, when you operate a small business, it is not at all unusual to be unable to pay YOUR OWN self a decent salary for the first few years. But you would have the hammer of justice fall on me to force me to pay money I earn to people, favoring THEIR need over my own?



If I'm trying to build a business, the PURPOSE of which is to improve MY financial situation, I'd be a fool to "mistreat" my employees. It is not "mistreating" them to pay them the wages for which they agreed to work.



So, again, I take all the risks, pay the franchise taxes, put MY butt on the line, realizing I may not make ANY money the first couple years.... and somehow it's "a level playing field" to force me to pay workers MORE than they agreed to accept?

These are all anti-minimum wage arguments.

I have not argued there should be no minimum wage. Not once. Not even hinted at that.

Yes, you just did.

I HAVE operated small businesses - I just never ever considered hiring anyone knowing full well I couldn't afford it. My business means that when it actually starts paying off, I get the benefit - which carries with it the responsibility to be the one that carries the risk. You can't afford to pay what the labor is worth, you do not hire.

And you don't buy a franchise if you haven't got a game plan for paying for the labor you need during the non-profitable period.

Someone that needs a job badly will agree to things that aren't in their best interest - that someone was desperate enough to take a job that didn't pay enough tells us nothing at all about whether or not that business is paying fairly. The playing field is not level.

And for the third time - I don't support the $15 min - I don't think set minimums are fair to anyone.

[Teallaura]

so you want to punish the companies that actually ARE providing jobs because there are no jobs available for degreed people? If there are no engineering firms hiring, you want to force a burger joint to pay engineering wages? Is it McDonalds fault that Boeing isn't hiring you? should they pick up the slack and hire aerospace engineers for $15/hour because they can't get a job at Boeing??

That's not what he said, Sparky.

[Teallaura]

I'm re-reading through this whole thread, and trying to figure out where you're getting some of your claims. But, meanwhile, how can you say that a cashier job at Walmart is not "entry level"?

How can you say it isn't essential?

At the end of a year or two, how many cashiers have permanent positions or have advanced? The answer is a tiny proportion - cashiers, stock clerks and other floor personnel are treated as part-time and temporary - there is no reward for longevity, good performance or the like beyond pay and benefit increases. If it is an entry level position, what did they actually achieve by entering?

They are predominately part-time positions and expected to be temporary - they are NOT entry level in any meaningful way. Entry level means you are starting a career within a company - but this model is no longer true of the American labor market where virtually no employees will retire from the companies they begin with - most will be expected to look for other opportunities within 3 - 5 years in even professional levels. Simply because it is possible to advance in a company (at least theoretically) does not create a meaningful entry level position. If advancement cannot be duly expected within a reasonable time frame, it is not an entry level position - which eliminates all Wal-Mart floor positions.

[KingsGambit]

so you want to punish the companies that actually ARE providing jobs because there are no jobs available for degreed people? If there are no engineering firms hiring, you want to force a burger joint to pay engineering wages? Is it McDonalds fault that Boeing isn't hiring you? should they pick up the slack and hire aerospace engineers for $15/hour because they can't get a job at Boeing??

Where did I ever claim any of this?