No More Foreign Aid For Abortion!

[Sparko]

Not sure what your point is here. Hitler didn't murder anyone, (i) he had his subordinates do the killing, and (ii) they did it legally according to the laws in Germany at the time so it wasn't murder.

pedantic much? and yes while it was "legal" in Germany, it is still considered murder by everyone else, including Germans. So apparently "murder" isn't just defined by "illegal killing" - it is immoral killing. Even if a country does make it legal to kill someone, and it is morally unjust, then it is still murder. That is why we have a world court and condemn dictators for murdering their own people and war crimes and so on.

Just because the holocaust wasn't "murder" doesn't mean it isn't unacceptable. Nor is there necessarily a parallel with abortion, because the casualties of the holocaust were different from the casualties of abortion. No conclusions about the acceptability of either the holocaust nor abortion can be drawn from neither of them necessarily involving murder. It's a fallacy.

The point wasn't to make a "parallel" it was just to show that defining murder so narrowly as tassman was, is incorrect. The holocaust WAS murder. It was attempted genocide.

[Roy]

You're saying that the Nazis were NOT mass murderers? Are you insane?

No, I'm not insane. The Nazis were killers, butchers, genocidal bastards or whatever other epithet you care to apply - but since "murder" is unlawful killing, they were not murderers any more than a hangman or a prison guard who sparks up an electric chair is.

I've been to a concentration camp. I've seen the gas chambers and the ovens. They built death factories. It was most certainly murder by anyone's reckoning. The semantic word game that "murder" only refers to the "illegal" rather than the "unjust" taking of human life is silly,...

It may be silly, but it's accurate. According to most countries' laws, what the Nazis did was mass murder - but not according to their own.*

Every historian on the Holocaust will tell you that what the Nazis did was murder. Legal or not. It was murder.

Better than what? Can you not distinguish between approval and accurate terminology?

Lawful killing is not murder by definition. If you want to change the accepted meaning of "murder" to include Nazi atrocities then you can try to do so, but then you're simply removing a useful distinction and making "murder" and "killing" synonymous.

*Many of them did commit murder too of course.

[Roy]

pedantic much?

Usually, yes. I get fed up of disagreements resulting from imprecise terminology, and have no truck with people who slide between meanings in order to propagate fallacies or falsehoods.

and yes while it was "legal" in Germany, it is still considered murder by everyone else, including Germans. So apparently "murder" isn't just defined by "illegal killing" - it is immoral killing.

No, it's "unlawful" killing.

Even if a country does make it legal to kill someone, and it is morally unjust, then it is still murder.

One problem here is that different people have different views of what is morally unjust. That is why we have a world court and condemn dictators for murdering their own people and war crimes and so on.

The point wasn't to make a "parallel" it was just to show that defining murder so narrowly as tassman was, is incorrect. The holocaust WAS murder. It was attempted genocide.

It was indeed attempted genocide. But strictly speaking it was not "murder", any more than any other death penalty is.

[Sparko]

No, I'm not insane. The Nazis were killers, butchers, genocidal bastards or whatever other epithet you care to apply - but since "murder" is unlawful killing, they were not murderers any more than a hangman or a prison guard who sparks up an electric chair is.It may be silly, but it's accurate. According to most countries' laws, what the Nazis did was mass murder - but not according to their own.*Better than what? Can you not distinguish between approval and accurate terminology?

*Many of them did commit murder too of course.

You realize that many Nazi's were actually tried and executed for murder because of the Holocaust? That Israel still hunts them down. What happens, do the Nazi's say "it wasn't murder it was legal" and the World Courts say, "ok you can go"?

Just because someone says it is not murder, or a corrupt government legalizes it, doesn't mean it is not actually murder.


"genocidal?" what do you think genocide is? It is murder.

Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation. synonyms: mass murder.

[EvoUK]

Whilst I agree that Roy is being pedantic (I'm assuming to make a point), I do not think that he is condoning or defending the holocaust.

Although I do think that the example being used is in poor taste.

[Mountain Man]

A clear example of there being a difference between legality and morality.

[Tassman]

What do you expect from an ignoramus who references Wikipedi?

What an idiot!

I was referencing the UN inequality-adjusted Human Development Figures as can be found on the UN's own site and on many other sites as well as Wikipedia.

[Tassman]

Full circle? Rinse, repeat.

OK, then Hitler didn't murder 6 Million Jews in WW2 because it was legal. Your turn.

[Jedidiah]

You are right Tass, just as the evil of the holocaust was legal, the evil of abortion is legal . . . technically, and for the time being. If there is a future we will be judged just as the Nazis are judged today.

[Tassman]

You are right Tass, just as the evil of the holocaust was legal, the evil of abortion is legal . . . technically, and for the time being. If there is a future we will be judged just as the Nazis are judged today.

[Roy]

You realize that many Nazi's were actually tried and executed for murder because of the Holocaust? That Israel still hunts them down. What happens, do the Nazi's say "it wasn't murder it was legal" and the World Courts say, "ok you can go"?

Give over. I'm not defending the holocaust at all.

Just because someone says it is not murder, or a corrupt government legalizes it, doesn't mean it is not actually murder.

If a government legalises killing in certain circumstances, then it becomes lawful and by definition it is not murder.

"genocidal?" what do you think genocide is? It is murder.

I know what genocide is. You do not appreciate the difference between killing that is state-sanctioned and killing that is not.

What the Nazis did was not "murder", because it was (mostly) lawful at that time and in that state. In fact calling it "murder" reduces the impact. It wasn't "murder", it was deliberate large-scale industrial genocide - which is far worse.

[Sparko]

Like Jed said, if you want to base your idea of "right" and "good" on the law, then you go ahead. Abortion is as wrong as the holocaust was. You can fool yourself by saying that since it is legal it is not murder, just like the Nazis comforted themselves by saying that killing Jews was not murder because it was legal. We all know that was a lie, don't we?

[Tassman]

Like Jed said, if you want to base your idea of "right" and "good" on the law, then you go ahead. Abortion is as wrong as the holocaust was. You can fool yourself by saying that since it is legal it is not murder, just like the Nazis comforted themselves by saying that killing Jews was not murder because it was legal. We all know that was a lie, don't we?

you believe abortion to be morally indefensible. It's also counter productive from your point of view because arguments couched in such hysterically emotive language are not convincing.

[Jedidiah]

you believe abortion to be morally indefensible. It's also counter productive from your point of view because arguments couched in such hysterically emotive language are not convincing.

Funny I was convinced by the concept when was still an unenlightened atheist. Your word games do not unconvince me.

[rogue06]

Historically abortion pretty much has always been looked down on. There may have been times where it might have been somewhat tolerated or more accurately speaking ignored but it wasn't considered right or good. There is, after all, a reason that even today liberals claim that they want it to be "safe, legal and rare."