University of Wisconsin stands by 'Problem of Whiteness' course

[robrecht]

Attitudes.

Is it your intended implication that only black people have bad attitudes or, when white people have bad attitudes, it is the fault of black people?

[Cow Poke]

Is it your intended implication that only black people have bad attitudes or, when white people have bad attitudes, it is the fault of black people?

Wow.

[robrecht]

Wow.

So what examples would you give of white people having attitudinal problems about race?

[Cow Poke]

So what examples would you give of white people having attitudinal problems about race?

You really gotta be kidding, right? Are you just in a mood to pick a fight?

[robrecht]

You really gotta be kidding, right? Are you just in a mood to pick a fight?

No, I'm sincerely asking for your input on this issue. So far you spoken out about black people having bad attitudes, about there being no good black leadership, and you've said that more white people would be interested in understanding and addressing these issues if more black people were able to grasp the example of a 'black problem' that I gave. Don't you think it would be good if you were also able to give at least one example of a white problem that is not caused by the black problems that you see?

[Bisto]

After reading through the thread I just have to ask:

Are there courses in US colleges called something like "Problems of Christians", "Problems of Muslims", "Problems of Atheists", "Problems of Homosexuals", "Problems of Transexuals", "Problems of Heterosexuals", "Problems of Women", "Problems of Men", "Problems of Liberals", "Problems of Conservatives", etc.? Would these courses be fine, or not? Please note I'm obviously not arguing any of such theses would be justified (I'm covered by several ). But I can imagine some teacher somewhere might want to advocate for, and make a course about, each of those.

Would they be funded (or non-funded) and face the same issues (or lack thereof) as the course spoken of in this thread?


FWIW, I would take the course on problems of Christians if it existed hahaha

[Cow Poke]

No, I'm sincerely asking for your input on this issue.

I'll pretend I think that's true. (kidding - I have no reason to doubt you)

So far you spoken out about black people having bad attitudes, about there being no good black leadership,

Let's clarify that -- no national black leadership. I know lots of good black leaders. Offset by the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons and such.

and you've said that more white people would be interested in understanding and addressing these issues if more black people were able to grasp the example of a 'black problem' that I gave.

True, and I expected you to turn that around on me, and I had planned on heartily agreeing.

Don't you think it would be good if you were also able to give at least one example of a white problem that is not caused by the black problems that you see?

Sure - disability, for example. It seems far too easy for people to "get on disability", and once on, you never seem to get off. I'd be surprised if this wasn't a bigger problem among whites than blacks. But, then again, I'm no expert in this area.

And, institutional prejudice. I did one of my college research papers on this, and used my own police department (about 7 years prior to writing my paper) as part of my study. I didn't consider myself 'racist' when I became a police officer, but after about 3 years of dealing with the worst of the black community, I found myself becoming rather prejudiced with black people in general. I had to remind myself that the same was true with whites - when I deal with the worst of the white community, I don't blame "all whites". So, I had a major attitude adjustment.

Anything else?

[robrecht]

I'll pretend I think that's true. (kidding - I have no reason to doubt you)

Let's clarify that -- no national black leadership. I know lots of good black leaders. Offset by the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons and such.

True, and I expected you to turn that around on me, and I had planned on heartily agreeing.

Sure - disability, for example. It seems far too easy for people to "get on disability", and once on, you never seem to get off. I'd be surprised if this wasn't a bigger problem among whites than blacks. But, then again, I'm no expert in this area.

And, institutional prejudice. I did one of my college research papers on this, and used my own police department (about 7 years prior to writing my paper) as part of my study. I didn't consider myself 'racist' when I became a police officer, but after about 3 years of dealing with the worst of the black community, I found myself becoming rather prejudiced with black people in general. I had to remind myself that the same was true with whites - when I deal with the worst of the white community, I don't blame "all whites". So, I had a major attitude adjustment.

Anything else?

Why do you think 'disability' is a bigger issue among white people?

Institutional prejudice is a good example. Do you think of that as the same thing as institutional racism or systemic racism? If not, how is it different? Are you speaking of something that only occurs in police departments or is it part of a wider societal issue?

[Cow Poke]

Why do you think 'disability' is a bigger issue among white people?

I have no idea - maybe just a perception.

Institutional prejudice is a good example. Do you think of that as the same thing as institutional racism or systemic racism? If not, how is it different? Are you speaking of something that only occurs in police departments or is it part of a wider societal issue?

I happened to notice it more in the police department. I also, however, had a good friend in another town who was a black police officer who noticed the same thing "the other way". When he would stop a white person for speeding, he'd get "the only reason you stopped me is cause I'm white". We'd laugh at how people would work that.

When I worked for the gas compression company, we were growing rapidly. As we began to interact with more "big dog" companies, we had to file "diversity reports" with them. We had to count how many persons of 'diverse' backgrounds we had... I always resented that. I hired people who were the best at the job, regardless of race or other factors. For whatever reason, we had very few blacks apply to be gas compression mechanics or technicians, and pretty much zero women. We were encouraged to "hire more blacks, Hispanics and women", and I WOULD have if I had any apply who were qualified for the job.

I had a running joke going with my executive admin, though, because I could "check quite a few boxes" on behalf of having her as an employee. She was, female, lesbian, Jewish, atheist... if only she had been black or Hispanic!

[Meh Gerbil]

Institutional prejudice is a good example. Do you think of that as the same thing as institutional racism or systemic racism? If not, how is it different? Are you speaking of something that only occurs in police departments or is it part of a wider societal issue?

I wish I had a room full of black people with which to have this conversation.

My fear/distrust of black people isn't the result of anything other than my belief (right or wrong) that they're likely to label me a racist.
Because of that perceived knee jerk reaction to label me a racist these people are the scariest people at my job.
They can get me fired at the drop of a hat.

One time I had a black woman confront me for being a racist because I didn't say 'Hi' to her in the hallway.
I don't say 'Hi' to anyone in the hallway.

Can you see how labeling me with today's worst thing to be (a racist) is why I'd find minorities to be very scary right now?
It is like a self fulfilling prophecy.

So yeah, those minorities that like to find racism under every single stone are very scary to me.

[robrecht]

I wish I had a room full of black people with which to have this conversation.

Maybe you would find this particular course to be especially interesting!

My fear/distrust of black people isn't the result of anything other than my belief (right or wrong) that they're likely to label me a racist.
Because of that perceived knee jerk reaction to label me a racist these people are the scariest people at my job.
They can get me fired at the drop of a hat.

One time I had a black woman confront me for being a racist because I didn't say 'Hi' to her in the hallway.
I don't say 'Hi' to anyone in the hallway.

Can you see how labeling me with today's worst thing to be (a racist) is why I'd find minorities to be very scary right now?
It is like a self fulfilling prophecy.

So yeah, those minorities that like to find racism under every single stone are very scary to me.

I don't know anything at all about the specifics of your job, of course, so I'm not sure if your fears are well founded. Do you have an HR department? Any kind of policies on substantiating reasons for dismissal? It sounds like you are an 'at will' employee, but your rights to sue are substantial and many companies, despite having mostly 'at will' employees, are accordingly extremely careful to document a multi-stage process for justifying a dismissal.

[robrecht]

I have no idea - maybe just a perception.

I happened to notice it more in the police department. I also, however, had a good friend in another town who was a black police officer who noticed the same thing "the other way". When he would stop a white person for speeding, he'd get "the only reason you stopped me is cause I'm white". We'd laugh at how people would work that.

When I worked for the gas compression company, we were growing rapidly. As we began to interact with more "big dog" companies, we had to file "diversity reports" with them. We had to count how many persons of 'diverse' backgrounds we had... I always resented that. I hired people who were the best at the job, regardless of race or other factors. For whatever reason, we had very few blacks apply to be gas compression mechanics or technicians, and pretty much zero women. We were encouraged to "hire more blacks, Hispanics and women", and I WOULD have if I had any apply who were qualified for the job.

I had a running joke going with my executive admin, though, because I could "check quite a few boxes" on behalf of having her as an employee. She was, female, lesbian, Jewish, atheist... if only she had been black or Hispanic!

So, is this institutional prejudice that you and your buddy experienced--do you think of that as the same thing as institutional racism or systemic racism? If not, how is it different? Are you speaking of something that only occurs in police departments or is it part of a wider societal issue?

[Cow Poke]

Maybe you would find this particular course to be especially interesting!

I don't know anything at all about the specifics of your job, of course, so I'm not sure if your fears are well founded. Do you have an HR department? Any kind of policies on substantiating reasons for dismissal? It sounds like you are an 'at will' employee, but your rights to sue are substantial and many companies, despite having mostly 'at will' employees, are accordingly extremely careful to document a multi-stage process for justifying a dismissal.

I don't know about MG, but my company had pretty much been a "white boys network", and at about 40 employees, we had zero blacks. Again, for whatever reason, we didn't have blacks applying for jobs as gas mechanics or technicians. But, as we began to explode in growth, and reach that "magic number" of 50 employees, we had to knuckle down on compliance and reporting, including all the affirmative action and "diversity" stuff.

It was part of my job to visit all our field offices in Texas, Arkansas, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, Kansas and our foreign office in Louisiana to explain the transition from "a bubba company" to a "compliance" company. It was quite a process.

[Cow Poke]

So, is this institutional prejudice that you and your buddy experienced--do you think of that as the same thing as institutional racism or systemic racism? If not, how is it different?

I don't know. I'm not a subject matter expert in that area.

Are you speaking of something that only occurs in police departments or is it part of a wider societal issue?

I think it's probably more evident in a police department because it's much more likely there will be physical interactions and abuses of physical force, rather than just hiring or firing or promotion prejudices. I'd guess that the police environment reveals the extremes or... greater abuses... of discrimination than what might be a lot more subtle in a normal workplace.

[robrecht]

The subject is not really an academic topic. It is a purely political one.

Political topics can certainly be discussed in an academic context. Political science, sociology, etc. Is there some reason that academic courses should not be allowed to discuss political topics?