Proposition 62 in California - Death Penalty

[Bill the Cat]

Where did he say Colombia was civilised? Your accusation of bias is based on a logical fallacy.

When one states "the civilized world doesn't use the death penalty", and then posts a map showing which countries use it and which don't, that is exactly what he is saying. By implication, he is stating the US is not "civilized", which is clear evidence of his anti-US bias.

[Roy]

When one states "the civilized world doesn't use the death penalty", and then posts a map showing which countries use it and which don't, that is exactly what he is saying. By implication, he is stating the US is not "civilized", which is clear evidence of his anti-US bias.

He's saying that civilised countries don't use the death penalty. He is not saying that countries such as Colombia that don't use the death penalty are civilised.

You'd have been better off sticking to his implication that the US wasn't civilised - which has enough of a no-true-Scotsman flavour to be rejected - and ignoring Colombia altogether.

[Sparko]

He's saying that civilised countries don't use the death penalty. He is not saying that countries such as Colombia that don't use the death penalty are civilised.

You'd have been better off sticking to his implication that the US wasn't civilised - which has enough of a no-true-Scotsman flavour to be rejected - and ignoring Colombia altogether.

so you are saying that uncivilized countries also don't use the death penalty. got it. I guess that pretty much destroys any point SL was trying to make. If civilized and uncivilized countries both have and don't have the death penalty, then what was the point again?

[Jaxb]

There was a recent high profile murder that made national headlines in the city that where I work (yes, the racially/religiously motivated murder). The defendant is 75 and terminally ill. Given that this state hasn't executed anybody in 50 years and that there is no chance he would survive the 10-15 years of appeals, I thought charging him with the death penalty was a waste of time and money, though I get that the decision to give him that sentence was really more symbolic.

Could the appeals be shortened, if there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the crime? If so, money would be saved.

[Jaxb]

Reminder, the civilized world doesn't use the death penalty. America's use of the death penalty puts it in the company of some of the most horrible nations of the world.


Blue - No death penalty (102 countries)
Green - Almost no death penalty (only for exceptional circumstances, e.g. during wartime) (6 countries)
Orange - Death penalty is on the books, but is not used in practice (no executions in the last decade) (32 countries)
Red - Use the death penalty (58 countries)

Part of the civilized world has the death penalty. There are good reasons for having the death penalty. Just a horrible nation uses a death penalty does not mean that the US is horrible for using it.

People who commit acts like mass murder deserve the death penalty. In a case like this, the penalty fits the crime. If you do something heinous, you deserve a harsh penalty.

[Psychic Missile]

People who commit acts like mass murder deserve the death penalty. In a case like this, the penalty fits the crime. If you do something heinous, you deserve a harsh penalty.

The purpose of the American justice system isn't to assign penalties that fit the crime, it's to reform criminals into responsible citizens and remove the crime-prone from society. Saudi Arabia does what you want and I do not agree that it has a model we should be following. Also, you say you're a Christian, but the death penalty is in direct opposition to Luke 6.

[Bill the Cat]

The purpose of the American justice system isn't to assign penalties that fit the crime, it's to reform criminals into responsible citizens and remove the crime-prone from society. Saudi Arabia does what you want and I do not agree that it has a model we should be following. Also, you say you're a Christian, but the death penalty is in direct opposition to Luke 6.

Wow.. just no. On all points... no.

[Psychic Missile]

Wow.. just no. On all points... no.

Thanks for the insight, Bill. There's a lot here, so give me a couple days to really sink my teeth into it before I respond to your points.

[Jaecp]

Looking at that map of Star's I see, of what we usually think of as "The West" has... us and... Japan? And the only country in Europe looks like Belarus.

Not exactly in good company otherwise.

[Starlight]

Where did he say Colombia was civilised? Your accusation of bias is based on a logical fallacy.

Logical fallacies are a personal strength of Bill the Cat.

[Jaecp]

Logical fallacies are a personal strength of Bill the Cat.

Indeed,

Also, it occurs to me, the only country besides mine that uses the death penalty is also the only one where ritualistic suicide to atone for failures is part of the cultural DNA. I imagine that would explain things

[Starlight]

Also, it occurs to me, the only country besides mine that uses the death penalty is also the only one where ritualistic suicide to atone for failures is part of the cultural DNA. I imagine that would explain things

Yes, Japan has a very weird honor/shame culture which is quite different to Western values in general. Although, I have seen a few people point out that the US South still has remnants of honor/shame in its culture, and that manifestations of this include that it retained the practice of dueling until quite late in the 19th century, favors the death penalty, favors stand-your-ground laws etc. I think to some extent the retention of archaic honor/shame thinking in the South is part of the explanation for the weird phenomena of US Conservatism.

[Jaecp]

Their are psychology studies contrasting general differences between Northerners and Southerners in terms of how they react to insults, sarcasm, and the like from others. The common N result was that the guy would throw shade right back at the offender, think Sea of Red, while the southerners tended to refuse to engage, stoicly, until a certain threshold and then would explode in Anger. Basic observational study, agrees with existing research about how suppressed emotions build up. It really fits the forum pretty well, too.

[Carrikature]

The purpose of the American justice system isn't to assign penalties that fit the crime, it's to reform criminals into responsible citizens and remove the crime-prone from society.

That's not its current purpose, but there's more than a few of us that believe it should be.

[One Bad Pig]

Their are psychology studies contrasting general differences between Northerners and Southerners in terms of how they react to insults, sarcasm, and the like from others. The common N result was that the guy would throw shade right back at the offender, think Sea of Red, while the southerners tended to refuse to engage, stoicly, until a certain threshold and then would explode in Anger. Basic observational study, agrees with existing research about how suppressed emotions build up. It really fits the forum pretty well, too.

Meh. Given how difficult it tends to be to replicate psychology studies, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that they're mostly exercises in seeing what the researcher wants to see. Your scenario sounds a whole lot more like introvert vs. extrovert than anything else. And are you sure you want to pick SoR as a good example? He who had a complete meltdown earlier this year and had to take some time off?