Justified Killing - Progressive vs Conservative morality

[Cow Poke]

Right, but you've said that it's acceptable to kill toddlers out of the womb if the parent wishes. I honestly don't believe you there man. From our two exchanges I got the feeling you were playing a sort of game. I can imagine how it probably started as a misunderstanding and grew into a monster that you've embraced; I don't think you planned this out. I think you're just really enjoying the reactions you're getting here too much to make a correction, and it's gone on too long for all sides now. You're not going to admit you never actually believed that publicly because people would stop responding to all of your posts, and others won't accept that they've had their chain pulled for this long. I just get the sense that it's what you've been doing man, you can take it personally if you want, but it just reads like this is what happened.

If you want to keep doing it, fine. I can't stop you and I doubt anyone is going to wise-up.

Interesting.

So, SL - would you like to expound further?

[Cow Poke]

So it's just amusing to see people who are against abortion really, and it's a bit like seeing people who are against wearing hats.

So, here we are, with you back to making such insane statements that it now appears you're just being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass.

[TheWall]

If you are on the wrong path the one who turns back first is the most progressive.
C.S.Lewis.

[Jaecp]

I'm almost positive that he has said that in the past. He has most certainly seen other people state that as his view, why doesn't he just correct it?

I mean, the more important point is in the earlier post. If he was screwing with people he'd have brought it up

[Starlight]

Alright people, let's try and get this thread back on topic - why is it that US conservatives are so okay to justify killing people under so many circumstances? What is it about their (im)morality that makes their gut reactions to seeing deaths in war, the death penalty, police shootings, stand-your-ground laws etc be "those killings were likely justified"?

A concept that seems to me to link these things is fear. I've come to think that a lot of conservative politics and worldview is dominated by fear, and that the concept that explains why conservatives think these killings are justified is because "somebody felt afraid". So to them, if you're afraid of a foreign country, attacking it is justified. If you're afraid of a murderer, the death penalty is justified. If a policeman is afraid of a criminal, shooting them to death is justified. If you're afraid of someone in public, shooting them is justified. Thoughts?

I happen to find just war theory compelling-- I referred to self-defense because it seemed the easiest way to boil down just war theory to fit into a brief post.

Everyone in the world would support any wars they regarded as "just" and not support any wars they regarded as "unjust". The key difference comes in assessing what makes something a just war.

For example, while I would support a just war in principle, I cannot think of a single historical example of any war ever that I am aware of that has ever met my stringent criteria for being a truly just war. A core reason for this is that in the world everyone has imperfect knowledge, and as a result of that imperfect knowledge it is almost impossible to have any level of certainty that participating in a war and killing people would actually in fact save significantly more lives than it kills. Our lack of knowledge of possible futures leaves us trying to balance participation in a war where people are definitely killed against theoretical and probabilistic possible futures where some unknown number of people are killed. And since we can almost never guarantee or have certainty that the latter will significantly outweigh the former, participation in a war can almost never be justified. The only exception would be where the particular aggressor is known, from past experience, to kill everyone in the lands they invade.

However, historically, people have claimed wars as "just" for all sorts of dubious reasons. Augustine argued that God in the bible gives the power of violence to the state, and that the state is justified in pursuing evil where it may. Other Christian theologians have suggested that a Christian state is justified in any wars it does against heathen nations. Other thinkers have said that states are justified in pursuing their own welfare and interests. Sam Harris has argued that the key to a just war is having a primary goal that is good. As far as I can determine, most conservatives in the US tend to think that the US is "good" by definition and thus any war the US engages in is justified, or at least think that if the media scaremongers for a couple of weeks about some random country that the US intervening or invading that country is justified. I find all these various ideas extremely dubious.

[Sea of red]

I mean, the more important point is in the earlier post. If he was screwing with people he'd have brought it up

Why? They are all getting their just deserts on this. The pro-life community on here rail-roads everybody that disagrees with them.

All of the discussions I've had with people on this site concerning abortion, euthanasia, and suicide have been incredibly unpleasant. Everyone they disagree with is murderer. So they deserve to get their yanked here.

[Sea of red]

Alright people, let's try and get this thread back on topic - why is it that US conservatives are so okay to justify killing people under so many circumstances? What is it about their (im)morality that makes their gut reactions to seeing deaths in war, the death penalty, police shootings, stand-your-ground laws etc be "those killings were likely justified"?

A concept that seems to me to link these things is fear. I've come to think that a lot of conservative politics and worldview is dominated by fear, and that the concept that explains why conservatives think these killings are justified is because "somebody felt afraid". So to them, if you're afraid of a foreign country, attacking it is justified. If you're afraid of a murderer, the death penalty is justified. If a policeman is afraid of a criminal, shooting them to death is justified. If you're afraid of someone in public, shooting them is justified. Thoughts?

Everyone in the world would support any wars they regarded as "just" and not support any wars they regarded as "unjust". The key difference comes in assessing what makes something a just war.

For example, while I would support a just war in principle, I cannot think of a single historical example of any war ever that I am aware of that has even met my stringent criteria for being a truly just war. A core reason for this is that in the world everyone has imperfect knowledge, and as a result of that imperfect knowledge it is almost impossible to have any level of certainty that participating in a war and killing people would actually in fact save significantly more lives than it kills. Our lack of knowledge of possible futures leaves us trying to balance participation in a war where people are definitely killed against theoretical and probabilistic possible futures where some unknown number of people are killed. And since we can almost never guarantee or have certainty that the latter will significantly outweigh the former, participation in a war can almost never be justified. The only exception would be where the particular aggressor is known, from past experience, to kill everyone in the lands they invade.

However, historically, people have claimed wars as "just" for all sorts of dubious reasons. Augustine argued that God in the bible gives the power of violence to the state, and that the state is justified in pursuing evil where it may. Other Christian theologians have suggested that a Christian state is justified in any wars it does against heathen nations. Other thinkers have said that states are justified in pursuing their own welfare and interests. Sam Harris has argued that the key to a just war is having a primary goal that is good. As far as I can determine, most conservatives in the US tend to think that the US is "good" by definition and thus any war the US engages in is justified, or at least think that if the media scaremongers for a couple of weeks about some random country that the US intervening or invading that country is justified. I find all these various ideas extremely dubious.

Bravo.

[Cow Poke]

Alright people, let's try and get this thread back on topic - why is it that US conservatives are so okay to justify killing people under so many circumstances? What is it about their (im)morality that makes their gut reactions to seeing deaths in war, the death penalty, police shootings, stand-your-ground laws etc be "those killings were likely justified"?

A concept that seems to me to link these things is fear.

Or it could have something to do with sincerely believing in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Cow Poke]

All of the discussions I've had with people on this site concerning abortion, euthanasia, and suicide have been incredibly unpleasant.

And, once again, what's the common denominator? I don't know that it's possible for you to have a 'pleasant' discussion with somebody with whom you disagree.

[Starlight]

Or it could have something to do with sincerely believing in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You think killing people is justified because you believe in a right to life? Or maybe you're saying the right to liberty is a right to kill people when you feel like it? Or perhaps the right to pursue happiness means you can kill others when you think it will make you happier? Do tell.

[Cow Poke]

You think killing people is justified because you believe in a right to life? Pull the other one.

Interesting that you pulled only one of the 'trinity' of "unalienable rights" from our Declaration of Independence.

[Jedidiah]

It has been discussed to death. We are talking about ONE persons alleged views here. Give it a rest already.

Don't reply if you don't want to be part of the discussion on it.

[Jaecp]

Why? They are all getting their just deserts on this. The pro-life community on here rail-roads everybody that disagrees with them.

All of the discussions I've had with people on this site concerning abortion, euthanasia, and suicide have been incredibly unpleasant. Everyone they disagree with is murderer. So they deserve to get their yanked here.

I'm not arguing it wouldn't be hilarious if you were right ;)

[Starlight]

Interesting that you pulled only one of the 'trinity' of "unalienable rights" from our Constitution.

It's the declaration of independence, not the constitution, idiot. And it's a right that runs directly opposite to your endorsement of killing. And I edited my post to include the other two anyway prior to reading your reply.

[Cow Poke]

It's the declaration of independence, not the constitution, idiot.

Correct, I realized that as soon as I hit "post".

And it's a right that runs directly opposite to your endorsement of killing. And I edited my post to include the other two anyway prior to your reply.

For which I didn't call you an idiot.