Justified Killing - Progressive vs Conservative morality

[Sea of red]

Yeah, right? Why is everyone so bent out of shape about a little bit of child killing?



There is something inside of you and Starlight that is broken. Honestly. You're okay with suicide, you're okay with abortion, and will defend someone who accepts infanticide, but somehow those who take a fundamental stand against these things are the irrational or immoral ones?

And, uh, in case you hadn't noticed, the thread is literally about "justified killing" and morality. Talking about Starlight and infanticide couldn't be more on topic except the thread were titled "why I'm cool with baby killing".

Adrift, we've had issues but I truly do respect your intellect - I know I once said I didn't but that was just to be rude, and I regret it.

I'm not defending his views. He's very wrong - no way around it. I've said it, you've said it, and just about everyone else has too. It's been done and re-done so many times that it's wore out at this point. But again and again you (and others) let it get to you, and it's just weird to see you of all people not realize his game. He made this thread because he knew you'd all bring this up and lose your minds again. You're not going to change his mind, so what's the point? You've made your point ten-fold, now move on already.

[Cow Poke]

Adrift, we've had issues but I truly do respect your intellect -

So, let's see... you've had issues with me, Adrift, TL, Rational Gaze, Jed, Mountain Man......

Anybody know what the common denominator is here?

[Spartacus]

So, let's see... you've had issues with me, Adrift, TL......

Anybody know what the common denominator is here?

Ooooh, I know!

It's me, isn't it?

[Cow Poke]

Ooooh, I know!

It's me, isn't it?

No. It's always about me.

[Sea of red]

So, let's see... you've had issues with me, Adrift, TL, Rational Gaze, Jed......

Anybody know what the common denominator is here?

Jed? No. Teal? Hardly. RG? Haven't spoken years. MM and you is no loss at all. The only one I regret is Adrift. I soured that one all by myself.

What else you want to know? You've had issues with lots of people too.

[Adrift]

Adrift, we've had issues but I truly do respect your intellect - I know I once said I didn't but that was just to be rude, and I regret it.

I'm not defending his views. He's very wrong - no way around it. I've said it, you've said it, and just about everyone else has too. It's been done and re-done so many times that it's wore out at this point. But again and again you (and others) let it get to you, and it's just weird to see you of all people not realize his game. He made this thread because he knew you'd all bring this up and lose your minds again. You're not going to change his mind, so what's the point? You've made your point ten-fold, now move on already. It just so not worth it.

Sea, the thread is LITERALLY about justified killing and morality. I don't give a rats ass if he doesn't change his mind (I mean, I do hope that one day it dawns on him how reprehensible his views are), but the hypocrisy of touting how moral he and other progressives are for their righteous views on the issue of killing is too rich to pass up when he himself is A-Okay with murdering children. Not just the abortion of human beings he ignorantly considers non-people (which is bad enough), but ACTUAL post-birth children.

Listen Sea, as long as Starlight is for infanticide I will not stop talking about it whenever I want, and wherever I want, especially when it's on topic. If Starlight were for the death of Jews and black people rather than babies...if he were some far right, White Nationalist Stormfront guy who liked to hang out on theology forums, would you ask me to stop talking about his racist views cause "You're not going to change his mind, so what's the point?" Maybe you would be for stopping us speaking out against it. I don't know. But I'm not. So you can stop telling me to stop, because I won't. K?

[Sea of red]

Sea, the thread is LITERALLY about justified killing and morality. I don't give a rats ass if he doesn't change his mind (I mean, I do hope that one day it dawns on him how reprehensible his views are), but the hypocrisy of touting how moral he and other progressives are for their righteous views on the issue of killing is too rich to pass up when he himself is A-Okay with murdering children. Not just the abortion of human beings he ignorantly considers non-people (which is bad enough), but ACTUAL post-birth children.

Listen Sea, as long as Starlight is for infanticide I will not stop talking about it whenever I want, and wherever I want, especially when it's on topic. If Starlight were for the death of Jews and black people rather than babies...if he were some far right, White Nationalist Stormfront guy who liked to hang out on theology forums, would you ask me to stop talking about his racist views cause "You're not going to change his mind, so what's the point?" Maybe you would be for stopping us speaking out againt it. I don't know. But I'm not. So you can stop telling me to stop, because I won't. K?

That's your choice man. I just think you're letting your emotions get the better of you.

Usually, you're one of the best debaters on this forum. When you talk about history and philosophy it's good stuff. But frankly, when you debate this guy, you get so wound-up you lose your typical smoothness. It's one thing to enjoy the entertainment of the whole thing but it's another to just keep butting your head against the wall. For what's it worth man.

I do apologize for some of those remarks I made.

[Adrift]

That's your choice man. I just think you're letting your emotions get the better of you.

Yeah, well, you know, it's hard not to be emotional about the killing of children.

Usually, you're one of the best debaters on this forum. When you talk about history and philosophy it's good stuff. But frankly, when you debate this guy, you get so wound-up you lose your typical smoothness. It's one thing to enjoy the entertainment of the whole thing but it's another to just keep butting your head against the wall. For what's it worth man.

I'm only human.

I do apologize for some of those remarks I made.

I appreciate that. I apologize for harsh remarks against you as well.

[Starlight]

So, let's see... you've had issues with me, Adrift, TL, Rational Gaze, Jed, Mountain Man......

Anybody know what the common denominator is here?

That they are impossible posters to deal seriously with because they are all nuts in their own ways and everyone has problems with them.

[Spartacus]

That they are impossible posters to deal seriously with because they are all nuts in their own ways and everyone has problems with them.

Has anyone ever told you that you're really bad at banter?

[Starlight]

I think he gets a real kick out of how much it upsets you guys.

No, I just translate it to "I hate abortion waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!" whenever I see it and roll my eyes at their silliness and ignore them.

I find the really huge obsession conservatives in this forum have with abortion quite funny really. In my country abortion hasn't been a political issue for decades (it's legal), and even conservatives here are fine with it or don't talk about it. So it's just amusing to see people who are against abortion really, and it's a bit like seeing people who are against wearing hats. So occasionally I LOL at them for their anti-abortion rants and screeds. It's not an issue I care about, and different people bicker over where the cut off should be, and I don't care about that either, because fetuses/infants are a lot less intelligent than animals so to me it hardly matters where the cut off is arbitrarily set. It's kind of bizarre watching the nuts in this forum lose their minds even more about the time period at which the abortion takes place, it's like them saying "well we're against wearing hats, but you mentioned you're okay with wearing really big hats, and that's just even more beyond the pale than wearing hats in the first place which is already beyond the pale".

Their own internal logic doesn't even make sense because if they think killing a fetus is murder then why is killing an older fetus or a small infant "worse"? By their logic a mother who kills a one day old fetus with a pill is just as bad as a mother who together with a doctor decides to kill her 1 day old baby, or a person who goes out and murders a stranger in the street, because they regard all as the murder of a human being. Yet they throw a complete tantrum when I shrug and say that abortion at any stage seems okay to me. Honestly, I think they are being deliberately deceptive and feigning fake outrage in their pretense that what I think is "worse" than what any average pro-choice person is, to try and drum up support for their pro-life position by holding me out as some sort of 'horror story' they can use to people who are on the fence. So they like to do pretend rants about the 'evils' of my view, for marketing purposes, when in reality they consider it no more evil than killing the fetus the day after it is conceived. Their whole screaming about partial birth abortions, or as Trump said in the debate '9-month abortions' (not actually a thing), is just deliberately deceptive attempts at making emotional appeals to people who are on the fence on the issue by trying to play on people's love of babies, because by their own logic a late abortion is no worse than an early abortion. It's attempted emotional manipulation of people and I find the whole thing pretty disgusting.

So yeah, I do a combination of ignoring it, getting amused by the weird people who (analogously) oppose the wearing of hats, and being disgusted by the various deliberately deceptive ways they try and spin the issue to mislead people into holding pro-life views.

[Adrift]

You're not amused by any of this. You're full of a lot of bravado that only demonstrates how much you care about saving face. Even the normal people in New Zealand would find your views bizarre and disgusting. I'm certain of that. If we took a toll of those citizens who accepted your views on killing as "Generally justified", including your views on infanticide they would find you to be a horror show. A monster. You're filth. A person that most normal people would hold their noses when crossing by if they knew what sort of slimy thoughts filled your head. Laugh all you want, just know that most of the sane world finds your views despicable. Be thankful that you don't live in a nation (whose security you can thank the US for) where they don't hang you by your toes for thought crime. You're pathetic.

[Starlight]

If Starlight were for the death of Jews and black people rather than babies...

You know I'm not actually "for" the deaths of babies right? I think people going to church should be legal and that people should have the right to do it, but I'm "against" them actually choosing to attend church and I sincerely wish people did it less and I occasionally spend time trying to convince religious people to abandon their faith, and so I am not "for" them attending church except in the sense that I think it legally should be their right to choose to do so - I am for freedom to choose to do the thing but not at all for the thing itself. In the same way I think parents should have the right to have the freedom to choose to terminate pregnancies in consultation with their doctors, but I'm not "for" the thing itself happening. I wouldn't have a problem with the law being written in such a way to extend that right beyond birth, which has been something that has been legal in most human civilizations in history, but I'm not "for" the thing happening more often. I approve of the right to have the legal freedom to choose to do the thing, not the thing itself. So when you compare me to neo-nazis who are actively and really for the deaths of jews or black people in the sense that they genuinely want it to happen and would like to see it happen, your comparison is utterly false and slanderous. I have no wish whatsoever to see more babies killed, just as I have no wish whatsoever to see more people attend church.

[Starlight]

Even the normal people in New Zealand would find your views bizarre and disgusting. I'm certain of that.

I'm not. The practice is legal in the Netherlands, and the Netherlands and NZ are pretty similar in levels of liberalness/socio-cultural development. There's no population-wide polling on the issue, but the couple of friends I've chatted to about it have the same view as me.

[Starlight]

A person that most normal people would hold their noses when crossing by if they knew what sort of slimy thoughts filled your head.

Um... so what mostly fills my head is the idea of maximizing freedom and wellbeing for all intelligent beings. I'm genuinely really passionate about that, and spend hours every day thinking about how I could improve the world. To me, that's why science and politics and economics is so interesting, because it has the potential to help people improve their wellbeing. I would absolutely hate any job I was doing for just money if I couldn't see how it was making other people's lives better, because I am absolutely passionate about improving other people's lives and pretty disinterested in money. I'm pretty obsessed with this concept really, to the point where I did a philosophy degree out of interest, and wrote a book about how the core message of the bible was to help others more.

As this thread mentions, the logical consequence of that principle of morality that I strongly believe in, is that abortion is fine because fetuses are not intelligent beings. Day to day, I think about fetuses approximately zero because they are not intelligent beings and not at all of interest to me. I think instead about all the intelligent beings in the world and what I can do to make their lives better. So if an average person walks past me in the street, then I am probably daydreaming about how to optimize democratic political systems to reduce corruption and best represent the will of the people to give an optimal society, or something like that. Or thinking about how breakthroughs in high-speed rail could be applied to improve the layouts of cities and reduce the commute times for everyone and lead to people having happier lives. Those are my usual "slimy" thoughts. Amount of time outside this forum I spend thinking about abortion: 0.000% of my life. Amount of time I spend thinking about how to improve people's lives: Quite possibly as much as 50% of my life.