What's the US Conservative equivalent of moving to Canada?

[Roy]

I was not Objecting to the 'Name Calling" if you read my reply I was pointing out that Starlight did not have a valid assertion and corrected his ignorance of the birth of the US Constitution, The US Constitution was born out of a revolution that started with the Declaration of Independence. This describes why we where fighting.

Starlight's defense was the Liberal trope that "many of the founders had Slaves." which I pointed out was a much to simplified response used by simple minded liberals. The issue of Slavery in America is much more complicated then the fact that some, not many, founders had slaves. some Founders freed their slaves. And many States had already made their views against slavery clear.

But I show where I did address this in the post after I show one of the things that Starlight said we where ignorant about and proved that He was the one that did not know what he was talking about with his own immigration numbers, he never disputed this.

I’ll post what you didn’t. my replies to Starlight that you say I did not make.

You are also confused. I did not say that you made no response to Starlight. Nor did I say that you were objecting to the name calling.

As for ignorance of the birth of the US constitution, you might like to know that the revolution did not start with the Declaration of Independence. The DoI was written more than a year after Battle of Lexington, which is where you later said the war started..

Since neither you nor RTT seem inclined to attempt to actually understand what I wrote, I see little point in responding further.

P.S. SInce you claimed I was lying, I've reported your post.

[Roy]

I barely know where to start with this one;

I know where to start.

The police are far less militant - False statement. The incidents of militant police action are miniscule compared to the number of police in the US. Here is where per-capita is used.

But you didn't use it. Perhaps this is why:

Number of policemen in the US in 2018*: 696,665
Number of police shootings in the US in 2018: 990
Police shootings per 100,000 policemen in the US: 100000*990/696665 = 142.

Number of policemen in NZ in 2018: ~9,000
Number of police shootings in NZ in 2018: 2
Police shootings per 100,000 policemen in NZ: 100000*2/9000 = 22

So per capita, the US police kill seven times as many people than the NZ police. The NZ police are far less militant than the US police.

Is your name Crystal?


*the most recent year I could find all four numbers for. The number of shootings haven't change much in 2019 or 2020, being around 1000 p.a. in the US and 3 p.a. in NZ.

[rogue06]

I know where to start.

But you didn't use it. Perhaps this is why:

Number of policemen in the US in 2018*: 696,665
Number of police shootings in the US in 2018: 990
Police shootings per 100,000 policemen in the US: 100000*990/696665 = 142.

Number of policemen in NZ in 2018: ~9,000
Number of police shootings in NZ in 2018: 2
Police shootings per 100,000 policemen in NZ: 100000*2/9000 = 22

So per capita, the US police kill seven times as many people than the NZ police. The NZ police are far less militant than the US police.

Is your name Crystal?


*the most recent year I could find all four numbers for. The number of shootings haven't change much in 2019 or 2020, being around 1000 p.a. in the US and 3 p.a. in NZ.

"Suicide by cop" is a very real phenomena with early (1996) studies indicating that they account for over 10% of all officer-involved shootings while later research cited by the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) puts the numbers between 10 and 29%^[1]. Given that the rate of suicide has increased by 33% between 1997 and 2017 we can reasonably expect those numbers to have increased in recent years as well.

Another factor that you skipped over is that New Zealand police aren't routinely carrying firearms (which probably has something to do with less shootings involving police) and not facing a well armed public including many more violent gangs.

When you add these factors the claim that NZ police are "far less militant" starts to fall apart.




1. citing "Examining 'suicide by cop': A critical review of the literature" by Patton and Fremouw (2016)

[Starlight]

"Suicide by cop" is a very real phenomena

Every time I think I've got a good handle on how immoral you are, you surprise me with worse. The victims were asking for it? Seriously?

Given you go on to give numbers of ~10% for the amount this was estimated to happen, why are you focusing on such a minority of cases?

Another factor that you skipped over is that New Zealand police aren't routinely carrying firearms...

...NZ police are "far less militant"

Can't you see a connection between those two statements? Not carrying firearms is being less militant.

It seems that New Zealand banned slavery in 1840 when it officially became part of the British Empire with the Treaty of Waitangi, which was seven years after Britain had abolished slavery with their Slavery Abolition Act of 1833

This is slightly complicated by the fact that New Zealand was not yet a country at that time: New Zealand's first democratic election was 1853, following the UK parliament's Act in 1852 to make New Zealand a self-governing country.

The Treaty of Waitangi in 1840, a dozen years earlier, was an agreement between the British and the native people in New Zealand (who today constitute only a small minority, but at that time were a majority) that made them British citizens and therefore implicitly subject to British law which included existing British bans on slavery and cannibalism. The natives were very tribal (though ethnically the same race) and had a history of violent raids against each other and taking slaves from others tribes, and occasionally eating them. The combination of Christianization of the natives, and British law declaring their practices illegal led to them stopping these practices.

So key points (1) slavery was formally illegal in New Zealand before day 1 of NZ's founding, and has never been legal in New Zealand for any part of New Zealand's history since, (2) there was no historical practice in New Zealand of Europeans doing organized slave-trading, not even pre-founding, and it would have been illegal for them as early as 2 decades prior to founding, (3) so, unlike America, there wasn't a post-founding ~80 year period where Europeans legally traded slaves of other races and had slaves, slavery was illegal in NZ from before day 1.

Compare to Pendragon's insanity in post #18 where he suggested the bonkers date of 1947 (yes, he meant the middle of the 20th century!) for when NZ abolished slavery and claimed "under British rule New Zealand was a slave state" which are off-the-charts loony.

[Cow Poke]

Every time I think I've got a good handle on how immoral you are, you surprise me with worse. The victims were asking for it? Seriously?

First of all, you really need to tone done these idiotic accusations of "immorality" unless you can prove he's actually being immoral. That's actually against the rules.

Second - the "suicide by cop" issue is a real - and very tragic - issue where somebody, for whatever reason decides to end their life, and does it in a cowardly manner by forcing a cop to shoot them.
Yes, that really does happen.

Suicide by Cop: Broadening Our Understanding

Suicide by cop (SBC) is a situation where individuals deliberately place themselves or others at grave risk in a manner that compels the use of deadly force by police officers. There are many known SBC-specific risk factors, warning signs, and triggers.¹ Individuals who feel trapped, ashamed, hopeless, desperate, revengeful, or enraged and those who are seeking notoriety, assuring lethality, saving face, sending a message, or evading moral responsibility often attempt SBC.² In the field of suicide prevention, SBC has received little attention.

[rogue06]

Every time I think I've got a good handle on how immoral you are, you surprise me with worse. The victims were asking for it? Seriously?

Just how brainlessly dense are you? Once again ignorantly spouting off about things you are utterly clueless about. Dunning-Kruger's poster boy strutting about parading his ignorance for all to see.

The fact is that a substantial portion of those shot by police (at least somewhere between10-30% of all police shootings here) are classified as "suicide by cop." This is a documented fact.

Source: Suicide by cop

The phenomenon has been described in news accounts from 1981,^[6] and scientific journals since 1985.^[6] The phrase has appeared in news headlines since at least 1987.^[7] It did not become common until the early 2000s. The phrase seems to have originated in the United States, but has also appeared in the UK, where a jury first determined someone committed suicide by cop in 2003.^[8]

Some of the first research into suicide by cop was completed by Sgt. Rick Parent of the Delta Police Department. Parent's research of 843 police shootings determined that about 50% were victim precipitated homicide. Police defined victim precipitated homicide as "an incident in which an individual bent on self-destruction, engages in life threatening and criminal behavior to force law enforcement officers to kill them."^[9]

The first formally labeled "Suicide by Cop" case in English legal history was a judgment made by the Reverend Dr. William Dolman while serving as a London coroner between 1993 and 2007.^[10] It set a legal precedent and the judgment, as a cause of death, has been a part of English law since.



Source

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Suicide by cop

Abstract


Study objective: "Suicide by cop" is a term used by law enforcement officers to describe an incident in which a suicidal individual intentionally engages in life-threatening and criminal behavior with a lethal weapon or what appears to be a lethal weapon toward law enforcement officers or civilians to specifically provoke officers to shoot the suicidal individual in self-defense or to protect civilians. The objective of this study was to investigate the phenomenon that some individuals attempt or commit suicide by intentionally provoking law enforcement officers to shoot them.

Methods: We reviewed all files of officer-involved shootings investigated by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department from 1987 to 1997. Cases met the following criteria: (1) evidence of the individual's suicidal intent, (2) evidence they specifically wanted officers to shoot them, (3) evidence they possessed a lethal weapon or what appeared to be a lethal weapon, and (4) evidence they intentionally escalated the encounter and provoked officers to shoot them.

Results: Suicide by cop accounted for 11% (n=46) of all officer-involved shootings and 13% of all officer-involved justifiable homicides. Ages of suicidal individuals ranged from 18 to 54 years; 98% were male. Forty-eight percent of weapons possessed by suicidal individuals were firearms, 17% replica firearms. The median time from arrival of officers at the scene to the time of the shooting was 15 minutes with 70% of shootings occurring within 30 minutes of arrival of officers. Thirty-nine percent of cases involved domestic violence. Fifty-four percent of suicidal individuals sustained fatal gunshot wounds. All deaths were classified by the coroner as homicides, as opposed to suicides.

Conclusion: Suicide by cop is an actual form of suicide. The most appropriate term for this phenomenon is law enforcement-forced-assisted suicide. Law enforcement agencies may be able to develop strategies for early recognition and handling of law enforcement-forced-assisted suicide (suicide by cop). Health care providers involved in the evaluation of potentially suicidal individuals and in the resuscitation of officer-involved shootings should be aware of law enforcement-forced-assisted suicide as a form of suicide.


Source

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Suicide by Cop: Protocol and Training Guide

What is a Suicide by Cop incident?


A Suicide by Cop incident is an encounter in which a suicidal person attempts to die by suicide by forcing a law enforcement officer to use lethal force.

• For example, a suicidal person may point a firearm (or toy gun, replica gun or other object that resembles a firearm) at the officer or a bystander.
• Or the suicidal person may run toward the officer with a knife or other dangerous object.
• In some SbC incidents, the suicidal person repeatedly tells the officer, “Shoot me.” However, in other cases, the person says nothing.
• The defining characteristics of SbC incidents are that the subject:
  • Threatens the life of the officer or another person, or
  • Attempts to make the officer believe he poses such a threat,
  • In order to give the officer no choice but to use lethal force to stop the threat.

How often do Suicide by Cop incidents occur?


Fatal incidents: Each year from 2015 to 2018, there were approximately 900 to 1,000 fatal officer-involved shootings in the United States.¹ And by various estimates, approximately 10 to 29 percent or more of officer-involved shootings involve Suicide by Cop incidents.² Thus, it is reasonable to believe that there may be 100 or more fatal SbC incidents each year.

Nonfatal incidents: A major research study in Los Angeles indicated that for every SbC incident that ended with the subject’s death, there were approximately 60 attempted SbC incidents, in which the police de-escalated the incident without using lethal force.³

Officer safety: One of the 419 SbC cases in the Los Angeles study involved an injury to an officer.⁴


Source

© Copyright Original Source

There you go moron, those are from the first three of 4,410,000 results that Google returned for "suicide by cop." Maybe the next time you'll stop to think first before showcasing your idiocy. If you'll notice in my post I provided links and cites so that should have clued in even a simpleton.

But you, to quote Edward Flaherty, "couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance." You represent a living breathing example of what can only be described as a "clueless event horizon" where weapons grade ignorance mixes with utter inanity to create a mixture so dense that a coherent thought cannot possibly escape.

[rogue06]

First of all, you really need to tone done these idiotic accusations of "immorality" unless you can prove he's actually being immoral. That's actually against the rules.

Second - the "suicide by cop" issue is a real - and very tragic - issue where somebody, for whatever reason decides to end their life, and does it in a cowardly manner by forcing a cop to shoot them.
Yes, that really does happen.

Suicide by Cop: Broadening Our Understanding

Suicide by cop (SBC) is a situation where individuals deliberately place themselves or others at grave risk in a manner that compels the use of deadly force by police officers. There are many known SBC-specific risk factors, warning signs, and triggers.¹ Individuals who feel trapped, ashamed, hopeless, desperate, revengeful, or enraged and those who are seeking notoriety, assuring lethality, saving face, sending a message, or evading moral responsibility often attempt SBC.² In the field of suicide prevention, SBC has received little attention.

But star always knows more than everyone else, therefore everyone else is wrong because star is always right.

[Cow Poke]

Just how brainlessly dense are you?

STUNNINGLY so... you'd think the boy would actually look up something like that -- simply Google "Suicide by Cop" -- and he wouldn't have to look so incredibly and profoundly ignorant.

[rogue06]

STUNNINGLY so... you'd think the boy would actually look up something like that -- simply Google "Suicide by Cop" -- and he wouldn't have to look so incredibly and profoundly ignorant.

As I noted,

4,410,000 results that Google returned for "suicide by cop."

And as I pointed out the fact I was providing links and citing sources ought to have clued him in that this wasn't something I was making up. But Mr. D-K... well, I think I more than made my point in post #128

[Cow Poke]

As I noted,

4,410,000 results that Google returned for "suicide by cop."

And as I pointed out the fact I was providing links and citing sources ought to have clued him in that this wasn't something I was making up. But Mr. D-K... well, I think I more than made my point in post #128

It's just amazing that Heckle and Jeckle keep weighing in so stupidly on matters in our country where they're so profoundly ignorant of reality on the ground here.

(yes, I'm aware of where you suspect they're getting their twisted version of 'reality')

[Cow Poke]

But star always knows more than everyone else, therefore everyone else is wrong because star is always right.

What's immoral is that somebody would put a police officer in the position of taking a human life so needlessly. It is not unusual for the SBC actor to pull this stunt in a public place where there are innocent civilians who could be killed.

My own worst encounter - and I praise God that I didn't have to shoot the guy* - was a man who was waving a .45 semi-auto around, but mostly holding it to the head of his own child whom he had in his arms - when we finally got the child away from him, he put the gun to his own head, but occasionally waved it around toward other cops, any one of whom would have been justified in taking him out.



*I had surrendered my gun belt - against all training I ever had - because of the fact that he was quite animated and had the gun to the child's head.

[Starlight]

Please stop derailing the thread. I didn't deny the existence of 'suicide by cop' so don't pretend to yourselves that I did. But bringing it up first and foremost as a proposed explanation for the ~7-fold difference in police shootings per capita between NZ and the US is hugely problematic. It's morally unacceptable because it's a blame-the-victim explanation (and denies moral agency to police officers, and is breathtakingly tone deaf to the current social concern around videos showing excessive and unnecessary use of lethal force by police in the US). It's statistically problematic because by Rogue's most generous estimates it doesn't come close to explaining the difference in magnitude. And it's psychologically problematic because it assumes people in NZ would never commit suicide.

At best, I could reinterpret Rogue's argument to be that since the estimated amount of suicide by cop in the US is approximately the number of deaths that occur at the hands of police in NZ, and that therefore we might speculate that NZ police are doing their absolute best and not killing anyone more than absolutely necessary, and that the additional 6x kill-rate of the US police thus represents the amount of excessive and unnecessary use of lethal force.

[Cow Poke]

Just how brainlessly dense are you? Once again ignorantly spouting off about things you are utterly clueless about. Dunning-Kruger's poster boy strutting about parading his ignorance for all to see.

The fact is that a substantial portion of those shot by police (at least somewhere between10-30% of all police shootings here) are classified as "suicide by cop." This is a documented fact.

And what makes this even worse is that often, after the fact, the cop discovers the victim's gun was either fake or unloaded --- and deals with that added guilt. That he/she was forced to shoot an unarmed person. (While it obviously will be ruled a "righteous shooting", it doesn't change the fact that the officer feels incredible guilt and remorse - often ending their career)

[rogue06]

And what makes this even worse is that often, after the fact, the cop discovers the victim's gun was either fake or unloaded --- and deals with that added guilt. That he/she was forced to shoot an unarmed person. (While it obviously will be ruled a "righteous shooting", it doesn't change the fact that the officer feels incredible guilt and remorse - often ending their career)

And something that they'll have to live with their entire lives often reliving it in nightmares.

[Cow Poke]

Let the damage control begin....

Please stop derailing the thread. I didn't deny the existence of 'suicide by cop' so don't pretend to yourselves that I did.....

You were clueless - it's quite obvious. Don't pretend it wasn't a colossal screwup on your part.