They Are Going After The Churches:

[The Thinker]

So again, if you and Thinker are correct nature has massively deceived mankind.

So? What's your explanation why so many people are wrong on so many things? Free will? People freely choose to will the wrong thing?

Explain why people get things wrong on your view and what ultimately is the cause for it.

[seer]

So? What's your explanation why so many people are wrong on so many things? Free will? People freely choose to will the wrong thing?

Sin makes us irrational in many instances, just look at yourself.

Explain why people get things wrong on your view and what ultimately is the cause for it.

Original sin.

[seer]

I know exactly what you're saying and you're wrong. I ask you this question because it is relevant.

Let me ask you again for the forth time: Are you saying only my view is circular or everyone's is circular, including yours?

I just want to see you admit it, that you operate by faith apart from logical justification.

You are assuming a particular definition of knowledge and then claiming my view is incompatible with it. But you are begging the question on what knowledge is. So you need to tell me how we know anything and why only my view has an issue with it.

I never said that the laws of nature could not cause you to have true beliefs, only that you can not know or rationally justify any particular belief.

No. Do you know how silly you sound holding onto an incoherent view for so long?

See there you go again! You can not even be consistent with your own worldview! Calling my beliefs incoherent is like calling a tree growing a branch irrational. They are both equally determined and beyond our control.

Evidence and logic.

And how do you know what evidence and logic are? That you were determined to have a correct understanding here? And please don't revert to the ability to survive, most, if not all, creatures survive just fine without a working knowledge of logic.

[The Thinker]

Sin makes us irrational in many instances, just look at yourself.

What's your evidence of this?

Original sin.

What original sin? Prove it happened.

[The Thinker]

I just want to see you admit it, that you operate by faith apart from logical justification.

Are you saying only my view is circular or everyone's is circular, including yours?

I never said that the laws of nature could not cause you to have true beliefs, only that you can not know or rationally justify any particular belief.

Why? You need to lay out a theory of knowledge and show why my view is incompatible with it. You've done no such thing, but merely asserted.

See there you go again! You can not even be consistent with your own worldview! Calling my beliefs incoherent is like calling a tree growing a branch irrational. They are both equally determined and beyond our control.

Prove it by laying out a theory of knowledge and show why my view is incompatible with it.

And how do you know what evidence and logic are? That you were determined to have a correct understanding here? And please don't revert to the ability to survive, most, if not all, creatures survive just fine without a working knowledge of logic.

These will all be answered once you answer my questions above.

[seer]

What's your evidence of this?

You are the evidence -

What original sin? Prove it happened.

How can I prove the color red to a man born blind?

[The Thinker]

You are the evidence -

Oh wow, the bible says it, so that proves it's correct.

How can I prove the color red to a man born blind?

Disanalogous. You have no evidence, you have faith.

[seer]

Are you saying only my view is circular or everyone's is circular, including yours?

How has this simple point escaped you? I'm just demonstrating that on so many levels you live by faith, without logical justifications. I'm not arguing that I don't, only that you do. And that you more than hypocritical in your pronouncements against faith.

Why? You need to lay out a theory of knowledge and show why my view is incompatible with it. You've done no such thing, but merely asserted.

I already did. You can not logically demonstrate that on any particular issue that you were determined to believe a truism.

Prove it by laying out a theory of knowledge and show why my view is incompatible with it.

What are you taking about? How can you logically blame me for my views when I have no control over them?

These will all be answered once you answer my questions above.

I see no answer, again.

[The Thinker]

How has this simple point escaped you? I'm just demonstrating that on so many levels you live by faith, without logical justifications. I'm not arguing that I don't, only that you do. And that you more than hypocritical in your pronouncements against faith.

So you are saying both our views are circular? Be explicitly clear.

I already did. You can not logically demonstrate that on any particular issue that you were determined to believe a truism.

No you didn't. You are assuming a particular theory of knowledge here that is begging the question.

What are you taking about? How can you logically blame me for my views when I have no control over them?

You are still capable of explaining yourself.

I see no answer, again.

Because you refuse to answer mine.

[seer]

Oh wow, the bible says it, so that proves it's correct.

Right and your brain determined you to say the above so that proves it is correct! Good grief man, does your hypocrisy know no bounds?

Disanalogous. You have no evidence, you have faith.

Not in the least. And again your clear double standard! Your faith that you were determined to spit out a truism here!

[seer]

So you are saying both our views are circular? Be explicitly clear.

No I'm saying we both live by faith apart from logical justification. Nothing more, nothing less.

No you didn't. You are assuming a particular theory of knowledge here that is begging the question.

Again what the heck are you taking about? What do you do but beg the question every time you try and justify any thought you have?

You are still capable of explaining yourself.

Actually no - I can only do what I'm determined to. The fact is assigning blame to a deterministic process or outcome is irrational. Which you are doing.

Because you refuse to answer mine.

But I did, you are just too slow to get it...

[The Thinker]

Right and your brain determined you to say the above so that proves it is correct! Good grief man, does your hypocrisy know no bounds?

There is no hypocrisy there because my brain is capable of rationally evaluating arguments and yours, are bad. What I said is correct because we can show the Bible is wrong on numerous occasions.

Not in the least. And again your clear double standard! Your faith that you were determined to spit out a truism here!

Completely disanalogous. I'm not blind, we have access to all the same data and evidence. I don't need faith to believe my determined thoughts were true, I can compare them with the evidence and use a priori logic to evaluate them.

[The Thinker]

No I'm saying we both live by faith apart from logical justification. Nothing more, nothing less.

So are you saying yours is not circular and mine is? You have having a really hard time being rational here for a guy who thinks his view is the only one that allows it.

Again what the heck are you taking about? What do you do but beg the question every time you try and justify any thought you have?

You are saying that I cannot know a truism because of determinism, but that assumes a particular theory on knowledge which you haven't at all explained one bit. So go ahead and explain how we can know anything and why only my view precludes that.

Actually no - I can only do what I'm determined to. The fact is assigning blame to a deterministic process or outcome is irrational. Which you are doing.

No it isn't because, once again, I have no idea what you're going to do 5 minutes from now, let alone 5 seconds, so asking you to explain yourself when there is disagreement is perfectly rational on determinism.

But I did, you are just too slow to get it...

No, you completely refused to answer them because you know you can't.

[firstfloor]

we are religious by nature

[seer]

There is no hypocrisy there because my brain is capable of rationally evaluating arguments and yours, are bad. What I said is correct because we can show the Bible is wrong on numerous occasions.

There you go again! Taking by faith that you were determined to believe the correct thing in this instance!

Completely disanalogous. I'm not blind, we have access to all the same data and evidence. I don't need faith to believe my determined thoughts were true, I can compare them with the evidence and use a priori logic to evaluate them.

Of course you are blind!

So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

And are you kidding! You are just begging the question again, that you know that you were correctly determined to understand logic and evidence! Sheesh!