Problems with Heliocentrism

[klaus54]

The animations on the Galileo Was Wrong website will show you how a particular version of geocentrism accounts for the seasons. The current GWW website does not seem to have the animations.

http://web.archive.org/web/201402050...owaswrong.com/

JM

So, the ecliptic plane rotates +/-23.44 degrees about a stationary Earth's equator over a period of one year...

1) What force causes this?

2) Does the rest of the Universe move with the ecliptic?

3) (This should be a separate post.) What causes Earth's day/night cycles?

[Leonhard]

The orbital plane of the FP at the poles is assumed to be fixed. This means the FP assumes the earths motion through space around the sun of about 1.6 million km and the earths motion around the earth-moon bary center as - 6371-4641 =1730km (radius of earths motion). 1730x 2xpi =10864km. Motion each day = 10864/30 = 362km.

Okay I have no idea what you're doing here... you take the radius of Earth... and you're subtracting it from... I'm presuming this is the semi-major axis of the Earth's orbit around the Earth-Moon barycenter? In that case yes, the center of the Earth moves 362km per day around the EM barycenter. That's very reasonable.

And yes, like we explain that change in motion is ignored because usually when you have a Foucult Pendulum running, you reset it every day. The changes added here would be less than a percent of the changes occuring during a day. The addition of the precession caused by the sun would be less still by more than an order of a magnitude.

Adding these effects would not cause the Foucult Pendulum to behave erratically, or very differently. It would behave basically as the Foucult Pendulums we observe.

[Sparko]

The animations on the Galileo Was Wrong website will show you how a particular version of geocentrism accounts for the seasons. The current GWW website does not seem to have the animations.

http://web.archive.org/web/201402050...owaswrong.com/

JM

dont respond with weblinks. tell us in your own words. this is a discussion forum and argument via hyperlink is not allowed

[oxmixmudd]

But the distance is ignored in the Helio model. Hence the model is invalid. 3 Million miles is some distance.

JM

This is all so silly. It doesn't matter which model you use, he seasons are accounted for by the same two primary variations:

1) (MAJOR) the shift in the relative position of the sun and the surface of the Earth
2) (MINOR) the shift in the distance between the Earth and the Sun.

The difference between the two is that:

1) in the Heliocentric model these shifts result from the axial tilt of the Earth's rotational axis and the change in distance from the sun as the Earth orbits the sun.
2) In the geocentric model there are actual shifts in the orbit of the Sun around the Earth both in its radius and its track.

Either way, the seasons come from the changes in the relative insolation of the given land mass due to the change in angle of incidence moderated by (northern hemisphere) or exaggerated by (southern hemisphere) changes in the relative distance of the sun.

If the geocentric model does not contain changes in distance (91.4 to 94.5 million miles) and changes in angle of incidence (corresponding to the observed analemma created by photographing the sun at the same time of day over the course of a year) then it is a failed model (it can't produce what is observed). And if it does produce those same motions as observed from the Earth's surface, than that is how the seasons are accounted for in that model as well.

In summary, the cause of the seasons is the same for both models - periodic changes in insolation over the course of the year. The problem for the geocentric model is causation - WHY does the sun move like that. There is no known physics that would cause that kind of motion, whereas the physics that produces those same observed changes in the heliocentric model is trivial - gravity as an attractive force, an elliptical orbit, and an axial tilt with rotation.

Jim

[HMS_Beagle]

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but didn't we have at least two several-hundred-page threads with JM on this Geocentrism lunacy at the old T-Web? And weren't all these rebuttal points shown to him at least a dozen times to no avail?

You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into to begin with.

[Kbertsche]

Physics dictates that when a body comes closer to the heat source the body becomes warmer. When the helios try to explain seasons, they have to ignore this fundamental law of physics

Why in the world do you think we ignore this?!? You are talking about a variation of 3 million miles out of 90 million. This is about a 3% variation in distance, which produces about a 6% variation in intensity.

and reduce the reason for the seasons down to angle tilt of the suns rays through the atmosphere as NASA does here -

The sun's angle gives a much bigger variation than the 6% due to distance.

The direct rays of the sun mean nothing, simply because the earth is curved. The curvature indicates that direct rays cannot occur on a curved surface, no matter what the imaginary tilt of the earth is.

There will always be one point on the earth which the sun strikes directly, because the sun is directly above this point. At every other point the sun strikes at an angle. The sun's intensity is reduced by the cosine of this angle. This happens every day; in the morning and evening, the sun's intensity will be much lower than at high noon. When the sun is on the horizon, the angle is 90 degrees and the intensity goes to zero. This also happens seasonally, depending on latitude. This effect causes much more intensity variation than does the distance variation.

[lilpixieofterror]

But the distance is ignored in the Helio model. Hence the model is invalid. 3 Million miles is some distance.

JM

That's ridiculous JM because the distance is given as a reason Mercury and Venus are so hot, while Mars is so cold. Distance plays a part, but the angle that you are relative to the heat source also is important when out in open space (such as an orbiting planet). I gave you a simple experiment to perform to prove this simple principle. Have you tried it yet or are third grade science experiments something you don't care to perform?

[lilpixieofterror]

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but didn't we have at least two several-hundred-page threads with JM on this Geocentrism lunacy at the old T-Web? And weren't all these rebuttal points shown to him at least a dozen times to no avail?

You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into to begin with.

Yeah, but I don't consider these threads as a way to change JM's mind. Personally, I read them for the interesting physics lessons you often end up getting, as a result of the insanity.

[Raphael]

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but didn't we have at least two several-hundred-page threads with JM on this Geocentrism lunacy at the old T-Web? And weren't all these rebuttal points shown to him at least a dozen times to no avail?

You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into to begin with.

Yeah but they are fun.

[JohnMartin]

Okay I have no idea what you're doing here... you take the radius of Earth... and you're subtracting it from... I'm presuming this is the semi-major axis of the Earth's orbit around the Earth-Moon barycenter? In that case yes, the center of the Earth moves 362km per day around the EM barycenter. That's very reasonable.

And yes, like we explain that change in motion is ignored because usually when you have a Foucult Pendulum running, you reset it every day. The changes added here would be less than a percent of the changes occuring during a day. The addition of the precession caused by the sun would be less still by more than an order of a magnitude.

Adding these effects would not cause the Foucult Pendulum to behave erratically, or very differently. It would behave basically as the Foucult Pendulums we observe.

The University says the plane is fixed, yet Helio says the Earth has an ever changing plane due to motion through space.

JM

[JohnMartin]

dont respond with weblinks. tell us in your own words. this is a discussion forum and argument via hyperlink is not allowed

The sun moves up and down relative to a stationary earth. The sun moves in accord with celestial winds (from memory).

JM

[JohnMartin]

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but didn't we have at least two several-hundred-page threads with JM on this Geocentrism lunacy at the old T-Web? And weren't all these rebuttal points shown to him at least a dozen times to no avail?

You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into to begin with.

You can claim rebuttals were made, but only excuses were made. The scientific evidence for the stationary earth was overwhelming.

JM

[Duragizer]

Ah, Johnny, unlike Jorge's claptrap, yours never gets old.

[JohnMartin]

This is all so silly. It doesn't matter which model you use, he seasons are accounted for by the same two primary variations:

1) (MAJOR) the shift in the relative position of the sun and the surface of the Earth
2) (MINOR) the shift in the distance between the Earth and the Sun.

The difference between the two is that:

1) in the Heliocentric model these shifts result from the axial tilt of the Earth's rotational axis and the change in distance from the sun as the Earth orbits the sun.
2) In the geocentric model there are actual shifts in the orbit of the Sun around the Earth both in its radius and its track.

Either way, the seasons come from the changes in the relative insolation of the given land mass due to the change in angle of incidence moderated by (northern hemisphere) or exaggerated by (southern hemisphere) changes in the relative distance of the sun.

If the geocentric model does not contain changes in distance (91.4 to 94.5 million miles) and changes in angle of incidence (corresponding to the observed analemma created by photographing the sun at the same time of day over the course of a year) then it is a failed model (it can't produce what is observed). And if it does produce those same motions as observed from the Earth's surface, than that is how the seasons are accounted for in that model as well.

In summary, the cause of the seasons is the same for both models - periodic changes in insolation over the course of the year. The problem for the geocentric model is causation - WHY does the sun move like that. There is no known physics that would cause that kind of motion, whereas the physics that produces those same observed changes in the heliocentric model is trivial - gravity as an attractive force, an elliptical orbit, and an axial tilt with rotation.

Jim

There no known forces for the following in the Helio model -

Centrifugal force is a fictitious force.

Euler force is a fictitious force.

Coriolis force is a fictitious force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_reference_frame

The balloon sent vertically above the earth's surface must travel at a greater horizontal angular velocity due to the extra distance required to keep with the earths rotation. The change in angular velocity requires a horizontal force placed on the balloon. The greater the height above the earth's surface, the greater the force required. The force does not exist. Therefore the Helio, rotating earth model is invalidated whenever a balloon is sent into the sky.

The earths orbit velocity varies from 35km/s to 30km/s around the sun. The earth both moves through space closer and further from the sun and has variable velocity. The variable position and velocity of the earth relative to the sun is simply not transferable to the moon without adding forces to the moon. When the earth changes from 30km/s to 35km/s the earth accelerates and therefore has a force applied to the earth. As the moon travels with the earth in the Helio model, the moon must also have a force acting on the moon at the same time, to have the moons orbit velocity around the sun also change from 30 to 35 km/s.

So -

A force is required to accelerate the moon when the earth accelerates from 30 to 35km/s.

A force is required to decelerate the moon when the earth decelerates from 35 to 30km/s.

A force is required to accelerate the moon towards the sun when the earth accelerates towards the sun in the earth's elliptical path around the sun.

A force is required to accelerate the moon away from the sun when the earth accelerates away from the sun in the earth's elliptical path around the sun.

These forces do not exist.

The earth moon system is like the boy swinging the object around his head. The boy stands still (earth as 30km/s) and swings the object around his head. Then the boy begins to move (earth at 35km/s) and also swing the object around his head. When the boy is stationary there is a force F1 in the string. When the boy begins to move forward there is a force F1+F2 in the string behind the boys motion and F2<F1 in the string in front of the boys motion. The additional force F2 in the string behind the boy is equivalent to the extra force required on the moon when the earth accelerates from 30 to 35km/s. The additional force F2 comes from the boy. Yet with the earth moon system, there is no known way an extra force can be generated by the earth on the moon.

Also the boy would eventually run into the object, simply because the force applied by the boy can only be applied when the object is more or less directly behind the boy. If the boy begins to move forward when the object is in front of him, the force cannot be applied to the object by the boy to accelerate the object. As such the moving boy-object example shows that a two body system with an acceleration of the boy (earth) is very problematic.

Helio is a failed theory.

The sun moves in the geo model due to celestial winds. There is a known way - knowledge attained through revelation.

JM

[JohnMartin]

So, the ecliptic plane rotates +/-23.44 degrees about a stationary Earth's equator over a period of one year...

1) What force causes this?

I don't believe we currently know what the cause of the force is. We do know the geo universe has been revealed by God.

2) Does the rest of the Universe move with the ecliptic?

It would seem so. The universe has been designed to operate around the earth-sun system.

3) (This should be a separate post.) What causes Earth's day/night cycles?

The motion of the sun around the earth.

JM