Problems with Heliocentrism

[Roy]

By the way JohnMartin the milkyway exists.

Not any more - I just ate it.

[Mikeenders]

I was thinking about the heliocentric model and propose the following problems as a objections to the heliocentric model.

JM

ROFL....I ain't even going to dress this one up. This one is just as nutty as a fruit cake

[Boxing Pythagoras]

I was thinking about the heliocentric model and propose the following problems as a objections to the heliocentric model.

While the other gentlefolk in this thread seem to be somewhat familiar with you, sir, this will be my first time interacting with you. As such, I will attempt to give your questions as irenic and generous a treatment as I possibly can. Though it is tempting to be immediately dismissive of your position, I find that such questions can be great tools for helping us to understand precisely why we abandoned the Geocentric model of the universe centuries ago.

Problem 1 - ...When the earth is moving towards the sun, what is the force causing the moon to be dragged/pulled towards the sun along with the earth? Gravity caused by the sun-earth system would be the answer from the heliocentrists, no doubt. So when the earth is moving away from the sun, what is the force that causes the moon to also move away from the sun, along with the earths motion? Gravity? If so, then gravity caused by the earth-sun system is responsible for both pulling the moon towards the sun when the earth moves towards the sun and pushing the moon away from the sun when the earth moves away from the sun.

Actually, the answer is not "gravity from the sun-earth system," but rather "gravity from the Earth-Moon system." Gravity from the Earth-Sun system keeps the Earth and its satellites orbiting the Sun while gravity from the Earth-Moon system keeps the Moon orbiting the Earth.

Gravity is never "pushing" on any body. It is an attractive force between bodies.

Problem 2 - ...Apparently when an elliptical earth orbit is used in the heliocentric model, there are multiple (gravity??) forces appearing and then disappearing on satellites on opposite sides of the earth as the earth moves towards and then away from the sun. These forces not only appear and disappear, but act in different directions according to the location of the satellites and the motion of the earth, relative to the sun. All of these forces show the heliocentric system is a complete fabrication. These three problems seems to be devastating to the heliocentric model. What are the answers proposed by the helios?

I'm not understanding your reasoning, here. Why would the presence of a number of different forces acting upon a system indicate that "the heliocentric system is a complete fabrication?" I certainly don't find the fact that a system can involve numerous forces to be "devastating to the heliocentric model," and I am struggling to see why anyone would.

Problem 3 - Another problem for the heliocentric model associated with the above two problems is as follows. The tilt of the earth is required to account for the seasons during the year. ...So to account for the seasons, the small distance of less than 1720 miles is taken into account, but the distance difference over the year between the earth and sun caused by the earths elliptical orbit around the sun of about 3 million miles must be ignored to account for the seasons.

The axial tilt does not account for the seasons because it brings the summertime-hemisphere closer to the Sun and the wintertime-hemisphere further from it. I'm not sure where you got that idea. Rather, due to the axial tilt, the summertime-hemisphere is exposed to more sunlight in a 24-hour period than the wintertime-hemisphere receives. Longer exposure to sunlight equates to a larger influx of thermal energy, leading to the temperature variations we note in the seasons.

Put simply, the Sun is in the sky longer during the Summer than during the Winter. This is due to the axial tilt, and this accounts for seasonal climate change. It has nothing to do with Earth's distance from the Sun.

Problem 4 - Another problem for the heliocentric model regarding the foucault pendulum (FP) - Apparently the FP moves during the day and the heliocentrists say the pendulum motion occurs because of the daily motion of the earth rotating on its axis. The claim infers the earth rotates around the earths center of mass as the local barycentre of the earths daily rotation. Yet the heliocentric model using Newtonian mechanics also says the earth orbits the solar system barycentre every year and the earth-moon barycentre every month. If the FP accounts for the earths daily rotation, how then does the FP account for the earths yearly and monthly orbits around the solar system and earth-moon barycentres respectively?

Gravity is restricted by the inverse square law. That is to say, the gravitational force acting upon two bodies grows exponentially smaller the farther apart those bodies are from one another; however, the force of gravity grows proportionally to the masses of the two bodies. As you'll remember from High School math, a proportional change is very quickly overshadowed by an exponential change.

A Foucault pendulum at the North Pole of the Earth lies only a little over 6,371 km from the Earth's center of mass, but it lies 147,300,000 km from the Sun's center of mass. So, even though the Sun has approximately 332,900 times the mass of the Earth, it's far greater distance results in a gravitational force which is negligible upon our Foucault pendulum. Similarly, the baricenter of the Milky Way Galaxy much, much farther away, causing its direct gravitational influence upon the Foucault pendulum to be unnoticeable by any means which we currently possess.

Problem 5 - Sound travels at 761 miles per hour, whilst the earth rotates from west to east at the equator at about 1000 miles per hour. For the sound to reach the hearer standing east of the sound, the air must rotate around with the earth at 1000 miles per hour, allowing the sound to travel within the apparently stationary atmosphere (relative to the earth's surface). A similar problem exists at the poles, where the hearer standing east of the sound source will hear the sound within the apparently stationary atmosphere, which is rotating with the earth at almost zero velocity. For sound to work physically within the rotating earth model, the atmosphere must be rotating with the earth, having a velocity variability of between 0 and 1000 miles per hour from the poles to the equator. As the atmosphere has 1. velocity changes over distance from the poles towards the equator, and 2. velocity changes with height above sea level and, 3. accelerations due to the earths orbit around the earth's axis and the sun, what are the causes of the forces that cause the change in atmosphere velocities to have the atmosphere move along with the motion of the earth? Apparently wherever there is a change in velocity, there is an acceleration, which infers a force causing the atmosphere's mass to accelerate along with the earth's motion.

I'm unclear as to what you are claiming is a problem, here.

Firstly, are you aware that the speed of sound is not a constant, but is rather a variable which depends upon a number of factors, including temperature and barometric pressure?

Secondly, are you claiming that the atmosphere of the Earth shouldn't be expected to rotate with the rest of the planet?

Thirdly, are you aware that there is no such thing as "East" or "West" at the Poles? If you are standing on the North Pole, and you take a step in any direction, you head directly South. Similarly, a step in any direction from the South Pole takes you directly North.

Finally, what exactly are you saying we should expect to find on a rotating Earth model which we do not actually find in our world?

According to the standard global earth, heliocentric model, the earth has a radius of 3690 miles and a sun earth distance of about 93 million miles. According to the experiment and calculations performed by Eratosthenes 663 miles between Syene and Alexandria with the shadow caste at is 7 degrees.

http://www.windows2universe.org/citi...arth_size.html

Using trigonometry, the earth-sun distance is 663 x tan 83 = 5400 miles. Which means that the standard heliocentric narrative includes an ancient story concerning the geometric derivation of the curvature of the earth, which implies a sun-earth distance that is 5400 miles and not the now, modern distance of 93 million miles.

Eratosthenes' experiment has absolutely nothing to do with the Earth-Sun distance. The angle which he measured-- even according the the very article which you posted, and which you probably ought to have read-- is in relation to the Earth's center, and not to the Sun. The 663 miles between Cyrene and Alexandria denotes an arc length, and not the side of any triangle which would be useful for a trigonometric calculation of the distance to the Sun.

A Lagrange point is a location in space where the combined gravitational forces of two large bodies, such as Earth and the sun or Earth and the moon, equal the centrifugal force felt by a much smaller third body.

Sun ---- earth ---- L2

If the earth-sun distance varies over 12 months by about 3 million miles, how does the L2 lagrange point remain stable to enable SOHO satellite to remain in orbit around the sun-earth system? If the earths orbit around the sun is an ellipse, then L2 must be unstable, which will cause the gravitational forces of the sun and earth not to cancel the centrifugal force at all times during the year at L2.

Your logic doesn't really follow. The fact that the Earth's orbit is elliptical does not imply that L2 must be unstable. L2's orbit about the Sun is also elliptical. Can you provide any mathematics to back your claim that the L2 point should be an unstable position?

If the Milky Way exists as we are shown in pictures, why doesn't the very bright center of the galaxy permanently illuminate the earth? Surely the center of the Milky Way is far brighter than the sun.

Far brighter, but far more distant. The headlamps of a car a mile down the road from me are far brighter than the little mini-flashlight which I carry on my keychain, but I get more illumination from the flashlight due to its proximity.

[Sparko]

JohnMartin is back!

[HMS_Beagle]

JohnMartin is back!

moonbat2_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg

Hide da wimminfolk an chilluns!!!

[oxmixmudd]

JohnMartin is back!

comic relief ...

But you know, battling it out with John has often been a very interesting way to dig into some really interesting stuff. One of his threads a while back ended up in a very interesting discussion of how we are able to track very minute variations in the Earth's rotational velocity using the Very Long Baseline Array and quasars. Another time I was able to do some very interesting research on the observations of orbiting asteroids and how that can be used to quantify the barycentric motion of the Earth-Moon system and even help firm up the Earth/Sun distance, a very important measure relative to getting accurate parallax distances to the relatively nearby stars using the earths orbit as a baseline.

And I could go on. Johns misuse of science is creative enough it really can become quite the learning experience ... as long as you don't take him seriously.


Jim

[rogue06]

We can discuss the flat earth, and global earth models later. This in itself is an interesting topic. For now we can consider the problems with the Heliocentric model.

JM

You must have found this map






One of my favorite parts:

OrlandoFergusonFlatEarthMap-detail.jpg

[shunyadragon]

ROFL....I ain't even going to dress this one up. This one is just as nutty as a fruit cake

Why not!?!?!? It fits well with the Aritotilian view described in Genesis.

[firstfloor]

Is JohnMartin a spoof artiste?

[rogue06]

Is JohnMartin a spoof artiste?

No. He is the real thing.

[37818]

JohnMartin,

Ah, show the math for each problem. A Newtonian type solution should good enough.

[Sparko]

comic relief ...

But you know, battling it out with John has often been a very interesting way to dig into some really interesting stuff. One of his threads a while back ended up in a very interesting discussion of how we are able to track very minute variations in the Earth's rotational velocity using the Very Long Baseline Array and quasars. Another time I was able to do some very interesting research on the observations of orbiting asteroids and how that can be used to quantify the barycentric motion of the Earth-Moon system and even help firm up the Earth/Sun distance, a very important measure relative to getting accurate parallax distances to the relatively nearby stars using the earths orbit as a baseline.

And I could go on. Johns misuse of science is creative enough it really can become quite the learning experience ... as long as you don't take him seriously.


Jim

What? Wait...

Are you saying the sun doesn't go around the earth?

[Sparko]

You must have found this map

That's unpossible! What would keep the Canadians from sliding down into Mexico?

[rogue06]

That's unpossible! What would keep the Canadians from sliding down into Mexico?

It would explain why many people end up moving south as time goes on rather than to the north. When is the last time you've heard of someone retiring and going to Canuckistan as compared to the steady flow moving to places like Arizona and Florida.

[rogue06]

What? Wait...

Are you saying the sun doesn't go around the earth?

You might want to sit down for this.























And the moon really isn't made of green cheese.