Problems with Heliocentrism

[JohnMartin]

There's no mention of tutti frutti ice cream either moonbat. That's because the effects of each on Geo Earth satellites is negligible.

I see you're still too much of a coward to give your explanation as to why geo satellites don't fall straight to the ground. You can run all you want but you can't hide from the fact the geo satellites are there.

If the effects of the earth and sun on the satellite are negligible, then there is only a negligible force to move the satellite along with a moving earth. This makes the problem for the Helio model worse and not better. It is you who has ignored the substance of the Helio problem, then claimed I have ignored the problem in the Geo model, when I have explained this thread is not about Geo. The Helio model is under the pump in this thread, not the Geo model.

If you want to talk about the Geo model then start your own thread.

The problem remains unanswered.

JM

[HMS_Beagle]

You are trusting NASA, when NASA has produced fraudulent videos. How do you know the feather is really is feather? NASA told you so? Fraudulent NASA. Your so called proof assumes much.

JM

LOL! He we see the moonbat in his full blazing glory! Now everything NASA has done is a fake, they're part of the evil conspiracy to defraud moonbats.

BTW moonbat, the pictures you posted of the back side of the moon taken from space were also provided by NASA. How do you know those pictures aren't faked?

[HMS_Beagle]

If the effects of the earth and sun on the satellite are negligible, then there is only a negligible force to move the satellite along with a moving earth. This makes the problem for the Helio model worse and not better.

The problem remains unanswered.

JM

The effect of the Earth isn't negligible moonbat. The effect of the earth's gravity is many orders of magnitude more than the sun's effect.

You've had that explained half a dozen times now. Either you're terminally stupid or dishonest. Which is it?

[JohnMartin]

LOL! He we see the moonbat in his full blazing glory! Now everything NASA has done is a fake, they're part of the evil conspiracy to defraud moonbats.

BTW moonbat, the pictures you posted of the back side of the moon taken from space were also provided by NASA. How do you know those pictures aren't faked?

If you trust NASA, when NASA has invalidated the Helio model with its recent satellite video of the earth-moon system. Of course this means you think NASA is a fraud, for the Helio model is the true model. Right? Right! Now you trust an organisation that you know is a fraud. Right, Right!

JM

[JohnMartin]

The effect of the Earth isn't negligible moonbat. The effect of the earth's gravity is many orders of magnitude more than the sun's effect.

You've had that explained half a dozen times now. Either you're terminally stupid or dishonest. Which is it?

You have ignored the problem again. And still no link to the original post you claimed explained the problem. The original post doesn't exist, like your explanation doesn't have any explanatory power either.

JM

[psstein]

This is my only response to this thread as a whole:

[HMS_Beagle]

You have ignored the problem again. And still no link to the original post you claimed explained the problem. The original post doesn't exist, like your explanation doesn't have any explanatory power either.

JM

You have ignored the answer again.

You have lied about not having a link provided again.

You have been too cowardly to provide your explanation for geo satellites again.

[HMS_Beagle]

If you trust NASA, when NASA has invalidated the Helio model with its recent satellite video of the earth-moon system. Of course this means you think NASA is a fraud, for the Helio model is the true model. Right? Right! Now you trust an organisation that you know is a fraud. Right, Right!

JM

LOL! Just like YECs do, when Moonbat Martin is backed into a corner by evidence he can't explain he starts yelling SCIENTIFIC FRAUD!!

Once a moonbat always a moonbat it seems.

[oxmixmudd]

Lets see the Helio answer. Please include in your answer the Helio model's velocity and distance variations of the earth. You will not be able to do it. Then again, Helio's don't think they need to model to explain the satellites around the earth. Just isolate the earth-satellite system from the sun-earth system and then claim the Helio model explains the satellites. The problems with the Helio model abound and no compelling answers are forthcoming to resolve the problems.

JM

John - you just ignore the answers given. It is amazing how the folks here (and myself) just keep trying, but you just keep on ignoring.

But for THIS question, the answer goes like this. First you have to understand 'free fall'. Free fall is falling John. When you are in free fall you don't experience the force of gravity. That is what the astronauts on the space station experience as they orbit the Earth. And we can create free fall while not in orbit on an airplane for about 30 seconds or so by following a precise parabolic arc, and we can feel it for a second or so if we jump off of a high dive.

When in free fall, you just float about. Water's surface tension causes it to form a sphere as it floats about. It's really cool. No gravity to speak of. Not healthy in the long run, but fun for a little while.

But when you are in free fall, your velocity changes a lot. But you don't feel it (at least till you hit the ground), because that is how gravity works, and that is what free fall is.

Now an orbit is free fall (just like falling of a cliff), except that there is a sideways part to your velocity before you start falling. So, consider firing a bullet. It can go a very long way before it falls to the ground. The fall takes about the same amount of time as if you just dropped the bullet, but it can go miles sometimes if the bullet is fast enough. Now, what happens as we speed the bullet up (more gunpowder) and we fire it from a stand so far up it's above the air (no friction to slow it down). So it goes sideways farther and farther as we make it go faster and faster.

But it is still just falling.

But, when it starts going really far, what happens to the earth below it? Well, the Earth is a sphere, so the ground drops away. And the faster bullets take longer than they should to hit the ground. Now, once we get the bullet going fast enough, the ground drops away EXACTLY as much as the bullet falls over the sideways distance it travels. Once we hit that speed, the bullet never gets any closer to the Earth, and it's in orbit. But it is still just falling. Falling forever though unless something slows it down so that the falling can take it closer to the Earth.

Ok - that's a circular orbit. If I take that same bullet, and instead of firing it exactly sideways, but aim it up just a bit, then it will go into not a circle, but an ellipse. Now an elliptical orbit is still just falling, but now the speed varies a bit. Sometimes faster, sometimes slower. And the height above the ground varies too. But still just always falling.

That is what gravity does, it makes things fall.

For the Earth, this happens at about 5 miles/sec. For the Sun at the Earth's distance from it, about 19 miles per second (going on memory here).

So, that the Earth/Satellite system orbits the Sun means they are in Free fall around the Sun. That means that just like any other thing that is falling, they don't experience the gravity, and in this case, the sun's gravity (or only a very small amount of it as described below). So they orbit each other - basically, for the most part - Just as if the sun was not even there. That is how Free Fall works (and as I said, we can demo that several ways). So the speed can change without any force needed other than gravity, and it affects all the elements of the Earth/Moon system MOSTLY the same. Because they are ALL in free fall around the sun.



Now the small amount of gravity that can be felt in free fall comes from the fact that gravity is a force that varies over distance. So If I'm an object and not a 1 dimensional point, then the part of me that is closest to the Earth (or the Sun) feels just the tiniest bit more pull than the part that is farther away. That difference in pull is call a 'tidal force'. Now that force isn't even noticeable to an astronaut in orbit because it's too tiny to be felt and because it averages out, the astronaut acts like he's just a point at his center of mass. The bonds that hold his body together are just so much stronger than the tiny little tidal forces it just isn't really worth mentioning - except to illustrate what is going on.

And that is what happens with the Earth and any its satellites as they are orbiting the sun. The 'tidal forces' that act on the satellite and the Earth, though they are bigger than the tidal forces on the astronaut, are still not big enough to immediately affect the orbit of the satellite around the Earth, or for that matter the Orbit of the moon around the Earth (or not by enough to pull them apart anyway)

So that is how the geostationary satellite stays put. It and the Earth are in Free Fall (orbit) around the sun. And so they just orbit each other mostly like they would if the Sun was not there. They are in an elliptical orbit, so that means they speed up and slow down a bit, but they are still just falling around the sun. Always falling, never feeling the sun's gravity any more than just a tiny bit, the bit that is the Tidal Force.

The math for all this is simple. Just the inverse square law. To figure out what the maximum force a geostationary satellite feels from the sun, just figure out the ratio of the two squares of distance. WLOG, just pick 93,000,000 miles and 93,020,000 miles. The amount of force felt is the ratio of the squares of those two numbers times the force that would be felt at 93,000,000 miles. That ratio is ~.0004, or about 4/10,000ths of that force.

Now to quantify that in a simple, straight forward way without having to worry about what the various measures of force mean in real terms - we can just compare velocities. The earth's orbital velocity around the sun is around 19 miles/sec. 4/10000 of that is about .008 miles per second. Now the Satellite's velocity around the Earth is around 1.91 miles per second. So, the amount the sun affects that satellite as it orbits the Earth is about .008/1.91 or about .004 of what the Earth's influence is. About 4 thousandths John. So if I'm the Earth pulling on the satellite with 100 pounds of force, the sun is only pulling back with about at most 7 ounces of force. (That max pull only happens when the satellite is exactly between the Earth and the Sun)

Now do you understand why the Earth and the Geosynchronous Satellite don't need to worry (much) about the Sun? And why they track those 'changes in velocity' you mention without needing even an ounce of fuel and no magical special force other than gravity?


BTW, they do put fuel in the Satellites for 'station keeping' and to shift position a bit if needed, because even '7 ounces' of tug, over time, can need a nudge or two to fix.


Jim

ETA: Please note my 'force' examples are NOT supposed to represent the actual forces involved, but only illustrate their relative strength

[JohnMartin]

LOL! Just like YECs do, when Moonbat Martin is backed into a corner by evidence he can't explain he starts yelling SCIENTIFIC FRAUD!!

Once a moonbat always a moonbat it seems.

from the NASA Earth's facts sheet -

Semimajor axis (106 km) 149.60
Sidereal orbit period (days) 365.256
Tropical orbit period (days) 365.242
Perihelion (106 km) 147.09
Aphelion (106 km) 152.10
Mean orbital velocity (km/s) 29.78
Max. orbital velocity (km/s) 30.29
Min. orbital velocity (km/s) 29.29
Orbit inclination (deg) 0.000
Orbit eccentricity 0.0167
Sidereal rotation period (hrs) 23.9345
Length of day (hrs) 24.0000
Obliquity to orbit (deg) 23.44
Inclination of equator (deg) 23.44 http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary...earthfact.html

Earth at 152.10 million kms from the sun. Geo Satellite in orbit around earth, where the earth has a tangential velocity of 29.78 km/s.

Earth at 147.09 million kms from the sun. Geo Satellite in orbit around earth, where the earth has a tangential velocity of 30.29 km/s.

Distance difference in space = 5.01 million km.

Velocity difference = 0.51 km/s - 1,836km/hr.

The geo satellites orbit with the earth in the Helio model because -

1. The earth's gravity is greater influence on the satellite than the sun.

Reply - this is a meaningless answer in relation to the problem posed. If we remove the suns gravity force from the problem, the Helio's still have to explain how the earth alone can drag the satellites along with the change in the earths location in space, done at variable velocity. If a car decelerates, the passenger decelerates with the car if he is fixed to the car. The earth decelerates and the satellite decelerates because of gravity, even though the satellite is not fixed to the earth. The earths velocity change of 1,836km/hr along with the satellites same velocity change violates Newtons first law.

2. The earth drags the satellites along with the earth.

Reply - same answer as above. The Helio model does not account for the earth variable motion through space. in both the acceleration and deceleration examples, the Helio model violates Newtons first law of motion.

3. The problem does not exist.

Reply - The problem is real, even though Helio's either deny it or ignore it.

4. The earth is stationary, so the satellites do not need to move through space with the moving earth.

Reply - Yes, if the satellites exist, they provide evidence for a stationary earth, at least as a maths model.

JM

[JohnMartin]

You have ignored the answer again.

You have lied about not having a link provided again.

You have been too cowardly to provide your explanation for geo satellites again.

You've only ever provided a paste of a comment that inferred another post. The original post doesn't exist and along with that, the original answer to the problem probably doesn't exist either.

JM

[HMS_Beagle]

You've only ever provided a paste of a comment that inferred another post. The original post doesn't exist and along with that, the original answer to the problem probably doesn't exist either.

JM

You have ignored the answer again.

You have lied about not having a link provided again.

You have been too cowardly to provide your explanation for geo satellites again.

[HMS_Beagle]

If we remove the suns gravity force from the problem, the Helio's still have to explain how the earth alone can drag the satellites along with the change in the earths location in space, done at variable velocity.

The Earth's gravity is still there moonbat. The Earth/satellite barycenter is still in an elliptical orbit around the sun.

Reply - same answer as above.

The same moonbat stupidity as above.

Reply - The problem is real, even though Helio's either deny it or ignore it.

The "problem" only exists in the moonnbat's deluded dishonest mind.

4. The earth is stationary, so the satellites do not need to move through space with the moving earth.

Then why don't geo satellites fall directly down to the ground? You're a bigger coward now than you ever were when it comes to running from questions.

[JohnMartin]

John - you just ignore the answers given. It is amazing how the folks here (and myself) just keep trying, but you just keep on ignoring.

I certainly don't ignore. I read and reply very often.

Now the small amount of gravity that can be felt in free fall comes from the fact that gravity is a force that varies over distance. So If I'm an object and not a 1 dimensional point, then the part of me that is closest to the Earth (or the Sun) feels just the tiniest bit more pull than the part that is farther away. That difference in pull is call a 'tidal force'. Now that force isn't even noticeable to an astronaut in orbit because it's too tiny to be felt and because it averages out, the astronaut acts like he's just a point at his center of mass. The bonds that hold his body together are just so much stronger than the tiny little tidal forces it just isn't really worth mentioning - except to illustrate what is going on.

And that is what happens with the Earth and any its satellites as they are orbiting the sun. The 'tidal forces' that act on the satellite and the Earth, though they are bigger than the tidal forces on the astronaut, are still not big enough to immediately affect the orbit of the satellite around the Earth, or for that matter the Orbit of the moon around the Earth (or not by enough to pull them apart anyway)

So that is how the geostationary satellite stays put. It and the Earth are in Free Fall (orbit) around the sun. And so they just orbit each other mostly like they would if the Sun was not there. They are in an elliptical orbit, so that means they speed up and slow down a bit, but they are still just falling around the sun. Always falling, never feeling the sun's gravity any more than just a tiny bit, the bit that is the Tidal Force.

So you can ignore the sun. But cannot ignore the earth's velocity change in space, nor the earths position in space, which varies by millions of km/year. The lack of force from the sun is irrelevant to the objection. The Helio model that requires the earth to move, change position in space and velocity relative to space, is also ignored with the standard Helio explanations. Just like you have ignored them in your examples.

The math for all this is simple. Just the inverse square law. To figure out what the maximum force a geostationary satellite feels from the sun, just figure out the ratio of the two squares of distance. WLOG, just pick 93,000,000 miles and 93,020,000 miles. The amount of force felt is the ratio of the squares of those two numbers times the force that would be felt at 93,000,000 miles. That ratio is ~.0004, or about 4/10,000ths of that force.

Now to quantify that in a simple, straight forward way without having to worry about what the various measures of force mean in real terms - we can just compare velocities. The earth's orbital velocity around the sun is around 19 miles/sec. 4/10000 of that is about .008 miles per second. Now the Satellite's velocity around the Earth is around 1.91 miles per second. So, the amount the sun affects that satellite as it orbits the Earth is about .008/1.91 or about .004 of what the Earth's influence is. About 4 thousandths John. So if I'm the Earth pulling on the satellite with 100 pounds of force, the sun is only pulling back with about at most 7 ounces of force. (That max pull only happens when the satellite is exactly between the Earth and the Sun)

Now do you understand why the Earth and the Geosynchronous Satellite don't need to worry (much) about the Sun? And why they track those 'changes in velocity' you mention without needing even an ounce of fuel and no magical special force other than gravity?


BTW, they do put fuel in the Satellites for 'station keeping' and to shift position a bit if needed, because even '7 ounces' of tug, over time, can need a nudge or two to fix.


Jim

All very interesting, but unrelated to the problems posed. Ignoring the sun, or including the sun does nothing to answer the problem.

Earth at point A v=29.29km/s

Earth at point B 5 million km from point A, with v=30.29km/s

These changes in the Earth position and velocity are ignored in the standard treatment of the Helio explanation for the satellites.

I simply cannot make it any more simple ti understand. The Helio model is a botch job.

JM

[JohnMartin]

from the NASA Earth's facts sheet -



Earth at 152.10 million kms from the sun. Geo Satellite in orbit around earth, where the earth has a tangential velocity of 29.78 km/s.

Earth at 147.09 million kms from the sun. Geo Satellite in orbit around earth, where the earth has a tangential velocity of 30.29 km/s.

Distance difference in space = 5.01 million km.

Velocity difference = 0.51 km/s - 1,836km/hr.

The geo satellites orbit with the earth in the Helio model because -

1. The earth's gravity is greater influence on the satellite than the sun.

Reply - this is a meaningless answer in relation to the problem posed. If we remove the suns gravity force from the problem, the Helio's still have to explain how the earth alone can drag the satellites along with the change in the earths location in space, done at variable velocity. If a car decelerates, the passenger decelerates with the car if he is fixed to the car. The earth decelerates and the satellite decelerates because of gravity, even though the satellite is not fixed to the earth. The earths velocity change of 1,836km/hr along with the satellites same velocity change violates Newtons first law.

2. The earth drags the satellites along with the earth.

Reply - same answer as above. The Helio model does not account for the earth variable motion through space. in both the acceleration and deceleration examples, the Helio model violates Newtons first law of motion.

3. The problem does not exist.

Reply - The problem is real, even though Helio's either deny it or ignore it.

4. The earth is stationary, so the satellites do not need to move through space with the moving earth.

Reply - Yes, if the satellites exist, they provide evidence for a stationary earth, at least as a maths model.

JM

I made an error above.

Earth at 152.10 million kms from the sun. Geo Satellite in orbit around earth, where the earth has a tangential velocity of 29.29 km/s.

Earth at 147.09 million kms from the sun. Geo Satellite in orbit around earth, where the earth has a tangential velocity of 30.29 km/s.

Distance difference in space = 5.01 million km.

Velocity difference = 1 km/s - 3,600 km/hr.

The problem is worse than expected.

JM