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Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that�s not a joke

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jesse View Post
    We are specifically talking metaphysical. So yes the debate is in the realm of Theism. Not something non Theist.
    Why isn't the pre-wiring the author's bringing up not simply for a "higher power"? How would one distinguish this from theism via the extant methodology?

    K54

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    • #47
      Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
      No it snot. Unless you use a non-standard definition.



      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theism
      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Jesse View Post
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theism
        The standard definition today implies personal and immanent. Deism, which posit an impersonal non-immanent Deity is different to Theism.

        Anyhoo, sorry to derail the thread.

        Carry on...

        K54

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        • #49
          Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
          The standard definition today implies personal and immanent. Deism, which posit an impersonal non-immanent Deity is different to Theism.

          Anyhoo, sorry to derail the thread.

          Carry on...

          K54
          I don't know anyone who uses the term Theism to mean just one god. Whoever is, is using it incorrectly. Like Wikipedia.
          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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          • #50
            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
            The standard definition today implies personal and immanent. Deism, which posit an impersonal non-immanent Deity is different to Theism.

            Anyhoo, sorry to derail the thread.

            Carry on...

            K54
            P.S. Sorry, one more thing. Regarding the Merriam-Webster definition: (emphasis mine)

            Originally posted by MW Dictionary
            belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

            By this definition theism (God transcendent and immanent) vis-a-vis deism (God transcendent, not immanent) and pantheism (God immanent, not transcendent).

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Jesse View Post
              I don't know anyone who uses the term Theism to mean just one god. Whoever is, is using it incorrectly. Like Wikipedia.
              Doesn't matter if it's one or more gods. Immanence and Transcendence are the key concepts.

              K54

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              • #52
                Hmmm...
                there's monotheism, pantheism, panentheism, and polytheism. So, theism doesn't just refer to monotheism.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                  Doesn't matter if it's one or more gods. Immanence and Transcendence are the key concepts.

                  K54
                  I thought polytheist deities aren't as powerful as a monotheist deity?
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment

                  • #54
                    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                    P.S. Sorry, one more thing. Regarding the Merriam-Webster definition: (emphasis mine)
                    Yeah I get it. Theism is still the broad term for those who believe in a god or many.

                    Monothiest: Belief in one God.

                    Polythiest: Belief in many gods.

                    I am not real sure why we are arguing this point though.
                    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      Hmmm...
                      there's monotheism, pantheism, panentheism, and polytheism. So, theism doesn't just refer to monotheism.
                      That is what I was trying to get across. Not sure why it was hard to understand.
                      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                      Comment

                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                        We are specifically talking metaphysical. So yes the debate is in the realm of Theism. Not something non Theist.
                        All Gods belong to the metaphysical realm but not all hypothesized metaphysical beings are Gods.

                        That point is still rather important, wouldn't you agree?

                        Comment

                        • #57
                          Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                          All Gods belong to the metaphysical realm but not all hypothesized metaphysical beings are Gods.

                          That point is still rather important, wouldn't you agree?
                          It is an important distinction to make yes. But again, Atheists believe by in large in nothing metaphysical because it can't be "proven" by science. And that is exactly what Graham Lawton said in New Scientist and why it is "psychologically impossible". Unless someone down the line decided Atheism means something else entirely and didn't tell us.
                          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                          Comment

                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                            But again, Atheists believe by in large in nothing metaphysical because it can't be "proven" by science.
                            Sorry but you're going to have to back up that claim with some actual data. I don't recall seeing any study about Atheist metaphysical beliefs but then again I haven't looked very hard.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
                              Sorry but you're going to have to back up that claim with some actual data. I don't recall seeing any study about Atheist metaphysical beliefs but then again I haven't looked very hard.
                              Well I haven't polled the Atheist community to see what the percentage break down is, maybe someone already did? I wasn't saying it as a proof, just an observation.
                              "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                              Comment

                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                                Well I haven't polled the Atheist community to see what the percentage break down is, maybe someone already did? I wasn't saying it as a proof, just an observation.
                                Anecdotal data based on one's personal observations isn't very scientific. I agree there's a good chance that if someone is an atheist they will also reject paranormal phenomena. I will also bet a week's salary that I can find examples of atheists who still believe in ghosts, ESP, telekinesis, and all sorts of other metaphysical phenomena. Which kinda stops your "atheism means no metaphysical beliefs" idea dead in its tracks.

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