Originally posted by rossum
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The Biblical Big Bang
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Originally posted by JimL View PostOkay, I think we're basically in agreement in that the eternal universe is that which exists and that the temporal forms are one with the universe. I must be a Buddhist at heart.
All that exists are the transient temporal forms.
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Originally posted by rossum View PostPut like that, we do not agree. There is no "eternal" anything. Everything changes, so cannot be eternal. Whatever changes cannot be eternal and whatever is eternal cannot change. You can never step in the same river twice because it is not the same river and you are not the same you.
All that exists are the transient temporal forms.
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Originally posted by rossum View PostPut like that, we do not agree. There is no "eternal" anything. Everything changes, so cannot be eternal. Whatever changes cannot be eternal and whatever is eternal cannot change. You can never step in the same river twice because it is not the same river and you are not the same you.
All that exists are the transient temporal forms.
True, everything changes, but we do not know wthether there is even an eternel or not.
'Whatever is etenal cannot change?' Our existence is transitory and nothing is necessary, but no one can say what is eternal or not.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post'Whatever is ete[r]nal cannot change?' Our existence is transitory and nothing is necessary, but no one can say what is eternal or not.
By definition change means difference in time. If there is a difference then there is an inequality. Hence whatever changes in not eternal because there is a time when it does not exist. Change requires difference in time; being eternal requires no difference in time. Something cannot be both different and the same in time.
QED.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDrawing parallels between ancient mythical Creations as in Genesis and the cosmological science of the origins of our universe is an attempt to justify a religious agenda by the misuse and misrepresentation of science.
"By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast." (Ps. 33:6-9)
Now here we admittedly have poetic language, but the meaning is clear, "He spoke, and it was done". This statement has consequences, we should fear him, because he spoke, and it was done. Therefore this statement should be taken as a statement of fact.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut "God created the heavens and the earth" is stated as a fact, not a myth.
"By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast." (Ps. 33:6-9)
Now here we admittedly have poetic language, but the meaning is clear, "He spoke, and it was done". This statement has consequences, we should fear him, because he spoke, and it was done. Therefore this statement should be taken as a statement of fact.
The contemporary view in cosmology and physics of the origins of the universe is not a Big Bang
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut "God created the heavens and the earth" is stated as a fact, not a myth.
"By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast." (Ps. 33:6-9)
Now here we admittedly have poetic language, but the meaning is clear, "He spoke, and it was done". This statement has consequences, we should fear him, because he spoke, and it was done. Therefore this statement should be taken as a statement of fact.
And this passage gives Him a physical body: "mouth". Are Christians wrong when they say that the Father is immaterial and does not have a physical body?
If you are going to take Genesis literally then you can't pick out individual words in a passage to be non-literal.
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Originally posted by rossum View PostIf something is eternal then it exists for all values of time. If something changes then there are at least two different values of time when the object at T1 is different from the object at T2: Object@T1 != Object@T2. If the object were eternal then Object@T1 = Object@T2 for all possible T1, T2.
By definition change means difference in time. If there is a difference then there is an inequality. Hence whatever changes in not eternal because there is a time when it does not exist. Change requires difference in time; being eternal requires no difference in time. Something cannot be both different and the same in time.
QED.
Our universe may not be eternal, if it is not a cyclic universe, which is a possibility.The Quantum World is in a constant state of fluctuating change and is likely eternal.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is a Theistic believe that we share, but nonetheless a 'belief,' and not an obective verifiable fact. The Genesis version is based on ancient mythology not science, and one of the many mythical versions of Creation.
The contemporary view in cosmology and physics of the origins of the universe is not a Big Bang
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by rossum View PostIf God "spoke" then He did not make air, because air is needed to transmit speech. Without air there can be no sound of speech.
And this passage gives Him a physical body: "mouth". Are Christians wrong when they say that the Father is immaterial and does not have a physical body?
If you are going to take Genesis literally then you can't pick out individual words in a passage to be non-literal.
Here is a prose description of creation:
"You alone are the LORD.
You have made the heavens,
The heaven of heavens with all their host,
The earth and all that is on it,
The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them
And the heavenly host bows down before You." (Nehemiah 9:6)
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostMy point is that the creation account is not myth, we are to fear the Lord because he created all things, and myths are stories which do not have such direct implications.
Oh, but I think it is.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-15-2020, 05:57 PM.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostFrom Reasons to Believe...
So the universe was created from nothing, and is continually expanding, is the Biblical view.
Blessings,
Lee
Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-20-2020, 08:31 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe scientific view is not 'created from nothing. The cyclic universe is gaining traction in Physics and Cosmology as more evidence becomes available.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, interesting, we'll see! But I think the consensus view is still the Big Bang.
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