Originally posted by TheLurch
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James Tour gets to debate origin-of-life chemist!
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostNo, i mean the technical details. Show you know enough to understand the basis of his criticism, and can judge whether it's accurate.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, the sugars have to show more detail, particularly their chirality, they need to be homochiral (right-handed for life as we know it). Then the diagram as shown is too simple, it leaves out steps in the formation of the molecule, as indicated even by Szostak's comment: "Phosphate catalyzed chemical reactions [plural]"."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, the sugars have to show more detail, particularly their chirality, they need to be homochiral (right-handed for life as we know it). Then the diagram as shown is too simple, it leaves out steps in the formation of the molecule, as indicated even by Szostak's comment: "Phosphate catalyzed chemical reactions [plural]".
Blessings,
Lee
How many publications Tour and Behe have published in peer reviewed journals on the subject other than comments and letters 'arguing from ignorance.' A letter in Tour's site to biologists is not a dialogue with biologists concerning abiogenesis.
A model for the emergence of RNA from a prebiotically plausible mixture of ribonucleotides, arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxynucleotides. stak
Kim SC, Zhou L, Zhang W, O'Flaherty DK, Rondo-Brovetto V, Szostak JW. J Am Chem Soc. 2020 Jan .
Abstract
The abiotic synthesis of ribonucleotides is thought to have been an essential step toward the emergence of the RNA world. However, it is likely that the prebiotic synthesis of ribonucleotides was accompanied by the simultaneous synthesis of arabinonucleotides, 2'-deoxyribonucleotides, and other variations on the canonical nucleotides. In order to understand how relatively homogeneous RNA could have emerged from such complex mixtures, we have examined the properties of arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxyribonucleotides in nonenzymatic template-directed primer extension reactions. We show that nonenzymatic primer extension with activated arabinonucleotides is much less efficient than with activated ribonucleotides, and furthermore that once an arabinonucleotide is incorporated, continued primer extension is strongly inhibited. As previously shown, 2'-deoxyribonucleotides are also less efficiently incorporated in primer extension reactions, but the difference is more modest. Experiments with mixtures of nucleotides suggest that the coexistence of ribo- and arabinonucleotides does not impede the copying of RNA templates. Moreover, chimeric oligoribonucleotides containing 2'-deoxy- or arabinonucleotides are effective templates for RNA synthesis. We propose that the initial genetic polymers were random sequence chimeric oligonucleotides formed by untemplated polymerization, but that template copying chemistry favored RNA synthesis; multiple rounds of replication may have led to pools of oligomers composed mainly of RNA.
Please note that Szostak and others have published many articles, and DO NOT at this point claim how these processes in abiogenesis actually happened. They are working on plausible models for these processes. In other words they only claim a work in progress concerning the natural processes that occurred in abiogenesis.
Still waiting for the actual peer reviewed publications Tour and Behe have published based on their objections. So far I have seen absolutely none.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-03-2020, 03:00 PM.
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Thanks for the references, now this paper by Szostak gives a reference where we find:
So 10 listed steps or so. As far as needing other things not mentioned by Szostak, I don't see anything additional that would be required. I note that they state that stereoisomeric impurities are removed, though the stereoisomers might not be enantiomers.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by lee_merrill; 04-03-2020, 04:49 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostThanks for the references, now this paper by Szostak gives a reference where we find:
So 10 listed steps or so. As far as needing other things not mentioned by Szostak, I don't see anything additional that would be required. I note that they state that stereoisomeric impurities are removed, though the stereoisomers might not be enantiomers.
Blessings,
Lee
AGAIN PLEASE RESPOND, and avoid the classic attacking his work with 'arguing from ignorance.'
You are both understating and overstating the research by Szostak, and not taking into account Szostak's history of publications, which are many joint publications with many others in peer reviewed publications. A list can be found here: https://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szost...lications.html
How many publications Tour and Behe have published in peer reviewed journals on the subject other than comments and letters 'arguing from ignorance.' A letter in Tour's site to biologists is not a dialogue with biologists concerning abiogenesis.
A model for the emergence of RNA from a prebiotically plausible mixture of ribonucleotides, arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxynucleotides. stak
Kim SC, Zhou L, Zhang W, O'Flaherty DK, Rondo-Brovetto V, Szostak JW. J Am Chem Soc. 2020 Jan .
Abstract
The abiotic synthesis of ribonucleotides is thought to have been an essential step toward the emergence of the RNA world. However, it is likely that the prebiotic synthesis of ribonucleotides was accompanied by the simultaneous synthesis of arabinonucleotides, 2'-deoxyribonucleotides, and other variations on the canonical nucleotides. In order to understand how relatively homogeneous RNA could have emerged from such complex mixtures, we have examined the properties of arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxyribonucleotides in nonenzymatic template-directed primer extension reactions. We show that nonenzymatic primer extension with activated arabinonucleotides is much less efficient than with activated ribonucleotides, and furthermore that once an arabinonucleotide is incorporated, continued primer extension is strongly inhibited. As previously shown, 2'-deoxyribonucleotides are also less efficiently incorporated in primer extension reactions, but the difference is more modest. Experiments with mixtures of nucleotides suggest that the coexistence of ribo- and arabinonucleotides does not impede the copying of RNA templates. Moreover, chimeric oligoribonucleotides containing 2'-deoxy- or arabinonucleotides are effective templates for RNA synthesis. We propose that the initial genetic polymers were random sequence chimeric oligonucleotides formed by untemplated polymerization, but that template copying chemistry favored RNA synthesis; multiple rounds of replication may have led to pools of oligomers composed mainly of RNA.
Please note that Szostak and others have published many articles, and DO NOT at this point claim how these processes in abiogenesis actually happened. They are working on plausible models for these processes. In other words they only claim a work in progress concerning the natural processes that occurred in abiogenesis.
Still waiting for the actual peer reviewed publications Tour and Behe have published based on their objections. So far I have seen absolutely none.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYou missed the point. Szostak is not claiming to have a complete working model nor solution.
How many publications Tour and Behe have published in peer reviewed journals on the subject other than comments and letters 'arguing from ignorance.' A letter in Tour's site to biologists is not a dialogue with biologists concerning abiogenesis.
A model for the emergence of RNA from a prebiotically plausible mixture of ribonucleotides, arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxynucleotides...
Please note that Szostak and others have published many articles, and DO NOT at this point claim how these processes in abiogenesis actually happened. They are working on plausible models for these processes.
Still waiting for the actual peer reviewed publications Tour and Behe have published based on their objections. So far I have seen absolutely none.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by lee_merrill; 04-03-2020, 06:16 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostIn other words, Szostak's quote was accurate.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, a 10-step process is not well-illustrated by a single arrow!
Now, you can argue that, in the context of the piece at issue, a more detailed pathway would be appropriate. But that doesn't seem to be the argument Tour is making here, does it?"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostI think it's sufficient to point out the discrepancy between what has been claimed, and what has been done.
Blessings,
Lee
You missed the point. Szostak is not claiming to have a complete working model nor solution. You have not responded to my my post.
AGAIN PLEASE RESPOND, and avoid the classic attacking his work with 'arguing from ignorance.'
You are both understating and overstating the research by Szostak, and not taking into account Szostak's history of publications, which are many joint publications with many others in peer reviewed publications. A list can be found here: https://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szost...lications.html
How many publications Tour and Behe have published in peer reviewed journals on the subject other than comments and letters 'arguing from ignorance.' A letter in Tour's site to biologists is not a dialogue with biologists concerning abiogenesis.
A model for the emergence of RNA from a prebiotically plausible mixture of ribonucleotides, arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxynucleotides. stak
Kim SC, Zhou L, Zhang W, O'Flaherty DK, Rondo-Brovetto V, Szostak JW. J Am Chem Soc. 2020 Jan .
Abstract
The abiotic synthesis of ribonucleotides is thought to have been an essential step toward the emergence of the RNA world. However, it is likely that the prebiotic synthesis of ribonucleotides was accompanied by the simultaneous synthesis of arabinonucleotides, 2'-deoxyribonucleotides, and other variations on the canonical nucleotides. In order to understand how relatively homogeneous RNA could have emerged from such complex mixtures, we have examined the properties of arabinonucleotides and 2'-deoxyribonucleotides in nonenzymatic template-directed primer extension reactions. We show that nonenzymatic primer extension with activated arabinonucleotides is much less efficient than with activated ribonucleotides, and furthermore that once an arabinonucleotide is incorporated, continued primer extension is strongly inhibited. As previously shown, 2'-deoxyribonucleotides are also less efficiently incorporated in primer extension reactions, but the difference is more modest. Experiments with mixtures of nucleotides suggest that the coexistence of ribo- and arabinonucleotides does not impede the copying of RNA templates. Moreover, chimeric oligoribonucleotides containing 2'-deoxy- or arabinonucleotides are effective templates for RNA synthesis. We propose that the initial genetic polymers were random sequence chimeric oligonucleotides formed by untemplated polymerization, but that template copying chemistry favored RNA synthesis; multiple rounds of replication may have led to pools of oligomers composed mainly of RNA.
Please note that Szostak and others have published many articles, and DO NOT at this point claim how these processes in abiogenesis actually happened. They are working on plausible models for these processes. In other words they only claim a work in progress concerning the natural processes that occurred in abiogenesis.
Still waiting for the actual peer reviewed publications Tour and Behe have published based on their objections. So far I have seen absolutely none.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-03-2020, 08:44 PM.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostNow, you can argue that, in the context of the piece at issue, a more detailed pathway would be appropriate. But that doesn't seem to be the argument Tour is making here, does it?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt remains a fact that you are misrepresenting the conclusions of his research, by claiming he made conclusions he did not make.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, I think it is:
Blessings,
Lee
Well, ah . . . citing Tour is not citing Szostak the source, and Tuor has published absolutely 'nothing' with actual research on the subject. Szostak stated clearly in his work he is developing a plausable model.
Still waiting. . . for you to do something else and not necessarily complete as all the steps are known beside misrepresenting Szostak without any knowledge on the subject, and citing Tour who has not published anything in the way of research to actually refute Szostak.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-04-2020, 05:15 PM.
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