Originally posted by grmorton
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Wigner's friend, the existence of the Immaterial soul, and death of materialism
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Lurch, Let's look at t'Hooft's definition of freedom:
"If we would have been deprived of the possibility to freely choose our initial states,
we would never be able to rely on our model; we would not know whether our model
makes sense at all. In short, we must demand that our model gives credible scenarios for a universe for any choice of the initial conditions!"
Originally posted by Gerard ’t Hooft ON THE FREE-WILL POSTULATE IN QUANTUM MECHANICS, p.5,6"This is the free will axiom in its modified form. form. This, we claim, is why one should really want ‘free will’ to be there. It is not the free will to modify the present without affecting the past, but it is the freedom to choose the initial state, regardless its past, to check what would happen in the future.
This still puts the human consciousness, the observer, in a very special circumstance as do all things quantum. This is saying that I can stop the universe's machination, the laws of physics, and effectively time itself, to check what happens in the future if I do x y or z. Wow! Sorry, don't buy that as a reasonable thing. It still has consciousness being powerful enough to entertain alternative futures. Kinda like those TV Sliders guys, Rembrant "Cryin Man" Brown in charge of the universe.
Edited to add: Since the past, the present and the future are all superdetermined, I don't see how one can suddenly say I have freedom to change the initial condition. It seems very ad hoc to me.
I am off for a couple of days to get scanned,, poked prodded and otherwise tormented by the medical community to see if my drug trial is actually working on me. Silence isn't a sign of me giving up.Last edited by grmorton; 05-23-2019, 01:54 PM.
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Originally posted by grmorton View PostThis still puts the human consciousness, the observer, in a very special circumstance as do all things quantum.
Now, it could be that i'm missing something in the paper - stuff like this i often have to read twice. But i have also read other things by t'Hooft and seen him speak, so i have some idea of what he's trying to get at.
Originally posted by grmorton View PostI am off for a couple of days to get scanned,, poked prodded and otherwise tormented by the medical community to see if my drug trial is actually working on me. Silence isn't a sign of me giving up."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostI'm recovering from heart surgery right now, so i fully sympathize.
t'Hooft said:
freedom to choose the initial state, regardless its past, to check what would happen in the future."
The phrase freedom to choose the initial state is exactly a collision with consciousness as something very special. A molecule can't choose anything. A rock in space can't choose anything much less initial states in an experiment. A dog and cat, can choose, but can't knowingly choose experimental settings. The only existing thing in the universe which can chose initial states in an experiment are conscious human beings. Seems to me, t'Hoofts definition far from dumping the specialness of humans, actually shows it. It is the only thing in the universe that can choose to set up an experiment and choose the initial settings. And that makes it very very special and very very different from rocks, asteroids, suns, galaxies and all other material objects.
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Originally posted by grmorton View PostSorry to hear about that Lurch. I was thinking about t'Hooft's statement while down at MD Anderson getting bone scans, cat scans and MRI scans and I realized I think I have a better point to make about his definition of free will.
t'Hooft said:
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Originally posted by grmorton View PostSorry to hear about that Lurch.
Originally posted by grmorton View PostI was thinking about t'Hooft's statement while down at MD Anderson getting bone scans, cat scans and MRI scans and I realized I think I have a better point to make about his definition of free will.
t'Hooft said:
The phrase freedom to choose the initial state is exactly a collision with consciousness as something very special. A molecule can't choose anything. A rock in space can't choose anything much less initial states in an experiment. A dog and cat, can choose, but can't knowingly choose experimental settings. The only existing thing in the universe which can chose initial states in an experiment are conscious human beings. Seems to me, t'Hoofts definition far from dumping the specialness of humans, actually shows it. It is the only thing in the universe that can choose to set up an experiment and choose the initial settings. And that makes it very very special and very very different from rocks, asteroids, suns, galaxies and all other material objects.
Well, i mean, you can, obviously, given that's what you're doing here. But it's not logically consistent. It's like arguing for the lunar regolith having specific mineral properties based on things derived in a model in which the moon is made of cheese.
Now, that's only a problem because you've already rejected the supercausal framework that these arguments are based on. But there's also an issue with this particular quote you're using. This again gets back to the issue that you're arguing for a very specific meanings for things like "free will" and "choice", but using quotes from materials where these things have different meanings.
In the case of this quote, the full context of the paper makes it clear that he's talking about "free will" purely in physical models. Any decent physical model, he argues, should be able to project future behavior from any set of initial conditions you choose. The "freedom to choose the initial state" that you've bolded is nothing more than having a model you can plug any arbitrary but physically plausible parameters into.
To make this clear, let me quote the from just above the bit you quoted:
In our model, we will only be able to perform such tasks if we possess some notion of the complete class of all possible configurations of our variables. For every member of this class, our model should produce reasonable predictions. Even if, in the real world, only very limited subsets of all possibilities will ever be realized anywhere at any time, our model must be able to describe all eventualities. If we would have been deprived of the possibility to freely choose our initial states, we would never be able to rely on our model; we would not know whether our model makes sense at all."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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I too want to revisit the quote at the bottom of your note above.
In our model, we will only be able to perform such tasks if we possess some notion of the complete class of all possible configurations of our variables. For every member of this class, our model should produce reasonable predictions. Even if, in the real world, only very limited subsets of all possibilities will ever be realized anywhere at any time, our model must be able to describe all eventualities. If we would have been deprived of the possibility to freely choose our initial states, we would never be able to rely on our model; we would not know whether our model makes sense at all.
If they have to have a notion of the complete class of possible configurations, that is impossible in many quantum problems because the information required for that task exceeds the available information in the known universe.
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Originally posted by grmorton View PostI too want to revisit the quote at the bottom of your note above.
In our model, we will only be able to perform such tasks if we possess some notion of the complete class of all possible configurations of our variables. For every member of this class, our model should produce reasonable predictions. Even if, in the real world, only very limited subsets of all possibilities will ever be realized anywhere at any time, our model must be able to describe all eventualities. If we would have been deprived of the possibility to freely choose our initial states, we would never be able to rely on our model; we would not know whether our model makes sense at all.
If they have to have a notion of the complete class of possible configurations, that is impossible in many quantum problems because the information required for that task exceeds the available information in the known universe."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Hey guys, could you please explain if the Copenhagen interpretation state that consciousness, or conscious observation, is the cause of the reality that we observe? Does the interpretation conclude that my obsevation of a thing is the cause of that thing? Thanks.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHey guys, could you please explain if the Copenhagen interpretation state that consciousness, or conscious observation, is the cause of the reality that we observe? Does the interpretation conclude that my obsevation of a thing is the cause of that thing? Thanks.
As far as i'm aware, the Copenhagen interpretation doesn't specify the qualities that an observer must have. So, i think that both my favored position and grmorton's would be compatible with Copenhagen."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostWhich interpretation of the Copenhagen interpretation?
As far as i'm aware, the Copenhagen interpretation doesn't specify the qualities that an observer must have. So, i think that both my favored position and grmorton's would be compatible with Copenhagen.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostIt causes reality to shift from a probability distribution to a defined state.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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