Originally posted by lee_merrill
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The book Darwin Devolves
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Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Short break from my vacation because I've done a little light reading that's relevant to the discussions here.
Per Lee, Bene is arguing that duplications just aren't that important for evolution (haven't seen Behe's actual argument, but that's what's been presented here). So a measure of the frequency of changes of this sort would be useful. One for humans was apparently published recently:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08148-z
Which looked at 3 families of 2 parents, 1 child to get an estimate of the total number of duplications and deletions in the human genome. In just those 3 families, relative to the standard reference human genome, there were over 800,000 variants smaller than 50 bases long, and another 25,000+ that were over 50 bp. So these sorts of variations are incredibly common, and if Behe wants to argue that they're unimportant, he can't do so on the basis of their frequency.
A second paper looks at the genome of a fish that lives at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, and compares it to a close relative that lives near the surface.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-019-0864-8
Behe would undoubtedly focus on the fact that it produces a cartilaginous skeleton due to the "breaking" of a gene that's involved in bone formation. The loss of vision in the lightless environment was also associated with the loss of genes needed for it. But the rest of the news for him is... not so great. Despite a low rate of overall mutation (probably due to slow generation times), the rate of mutations in protein coding sequences are similar to that of other animals (and most of these are neutral or adaptive, rather than disabling). Duplications of genes are also extensive, with 310 different gene families showing expansion through duplications. In one case, an enzyme that promotes protein stability isn't duplicated, but the sequence that is used to start messenger RNA production has been duplicated 4 times, allowing much more of the protein to be made from a single copy of the gene.
Once again, evidence that the majority of evolutionary changes in a free living population don't involve null mutations, and evolution is readily able to leverage the extremely frequent gene duplications that occur naturally.
Overall, further evidence that Behe's wrong, and starting an argument with "Behe says" is no better than starting it with "a random internet weirdo says"."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostSorry, I should have said mutations which degrade or disable a gene, but which provide a selective advantage.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by shunyadragon; 04-24-2019, 09:12 AM.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostAgain, SO WHAT? Evolution doesn't require a return to a previous state.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostIn just those 3 families, relative to the standard reference human genome, there were over 800,000 variants smaller than 50 bases long, and another 25,000+ that were over 50 bp. So these sorts of variations are incredibly common, and if Behe wants to argue that they're unimportant, he can't do so on the basis of their frequency.
Duplications of genes are also extensive, with 310 different gene families showing expansion through duplications. In one case, an enzyme that promotes protein stability isn't duplicated, but the sequence that is used to start messenger RNA production has been duplicated 4 times, allowing much more of the protein to be made from a single copy of the gene.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut these are structural variants, aren't they? Which would include duplications, but also deletions, copy-number variants, insertions, inversions and translocations.
Also, FYI, copy number variations ARE duplications and deletions. Again: learn some biology before you try to lecture others about it.
Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYet the rate of duplication fixation per gene is estimated at 1 per 100 million years! Not so very common.
So why do you bring that number up like it's significant?"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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[QUOTE=lee_merrill;629124]But these are structural variants, aren't they? Which would include duplications, but also deletions, copy-number variants, insertions, inversions and translocations.
Yet the rate of duplication fixation per gene is estimated at 1 per 100 million years! Not so very common.
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNo, but reversing selective pressure would select for the previous state, but evolution has difficulty getting back there. And this is surprising.
For one thing, there are invariably multiple selection pressures applying at any given time, each affecting a different trait (colouring, speed, ability to digest, size, tooth structure, etc), and they are extremely unlikely to all reverse to the same degree at the same time - and there are also interactions and trade-offs across traits that mean reversing evolution in one might not be advantageous because of effects on the others.
For another, the vast number of different ways to achieve similar results mean that evolution doesn't need to follow the same reverse path and it wouldn't be enough to find the right reverse mutation, it'd also require finding that mutation before finding any other mutation with similar effect.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYet the rate of duplication fixation per gene is estimated at 1 per 100 million years! Not so very common.
How common is it, Dory? How many gene duplication events occur in humans every year? What's the expected time needed for any given gene to be duplicated?
You don't know, do you?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostSo why do you bring that number up like it's significant?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostRoy already showed above that, when you consider things like frequency of occurrence (not fixation), and genome and population size, duplications are extraordinarily common.
And the fish example shows that hundreds of them can be fixed in a much shorter time if selective pressures are sufficient.
So why do you bring that number up like it's significant?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostFor one thing, there are invariably multiple selection pressures applying at any given time, each affecting a different trait (colouring, speed, ability to digest, size, tooth structure, etc), and they are extremely unlikely to all reverse to the same degree at the same time - and there are also interactions and trade-offs across traits that mean reversing evolution in one might not be advantageous because of effects on the others.
For another, the vast number of different ways to achieve similar results mean that evolution doesn't need to follow the same reverse path and it wouldn't be enough to find the right reverse mutation, it'd also require finding that mutation before finding any other mutation with similar effect.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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As The Lurch and Roy repeated demonstrated . . .
Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, I'm focusing on the fixation rate, since other duplications do not persist.
But we need to look at the average rate.
Because it's the average rate of duplications being fixed, which is slow.
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut we need to look at the average rate.Because it's the average rate of duplications being fixed, which is slow.
You keep citing that number, but you have no idea what it actually represents.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBecause it's the average rate of duplications being fixed, which is slow.
Incidentally, did you bother to look at the first table in that paper? The number in parentheses is the percentage of genes derived from duplications in each genome examined. It's about 40% for humans (!) and they're on the low end for metazoans (!). How can you possibly claim that gene duplications aren't a dominant factor in evolution when your own reference has numbers like that?*
*We all know it's because Lee didn't actually pay any attention to the paper he was using as evidence. Always look at the papers that creationists are citing as evidence."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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