A thought about our significance

[Cerebrum123]

Science suggests that that are an estimated 10 billion galazies in the universe, of which our galazy is only one. If they all have the estimated 100 billiion stars that exist in our universe, and if the average life of a star is 10 billion years, this suggests that 100 billion stars end their lives in this universe every year. This suggests that 281 milliion stars end their existence each day, which is 11.7 million starts per hour, 195.6 thousand per miniute, and 3,260 stars end their lives every second of every day of every year.

There are an estimated 7.6 billion humans on earth, and we average a 79 year lifespan. This means 96.2 milliion people die per year, 263,6K die per day, 11K die per hour, 183 die per minute, and 3.05 die every second of every day.

3260 stars per second....
3.05 humans per second...

A star has an enormous average power output. The power output of the average human is on the order of a few D-cell batteries.

But we have to audicity to consider ourselves "significant," and suggest that a god of the universe (if it exists) is singularly focused on our salvation?

I would chalk that up to human arrogance - and a need to be significant.

I wouldn't have expected you to think that size matters when it comes to importance. I mean, all your post says is that the universe is big, and we are small, therefore we are unimportant. This would mean big=important, and small= unimportant.

[carpedm9587]

I wouldn't have expected you to think that size matters when it comes to importance. I mean, all your post says is that the universe is big, and we are small, therefore we are unimportant. This would mean big=important, and small= unimportant.

I personally don't think I am unimportant!

Seriously, I think it's a bit bigger than that (pun intended). The universe is not merely "bigger" or "big;" it is vast beyond comprehension. I was reminded of this recently when I visited a science museum and saw a unique display. It consisted of 40 square, wire-frame, boxes in a series along a wall. In the first one to the left were five books. To the right was how those five books would look from 10 feet away (the perspective went upwards, so the next box revealed that the books were sitting on a park bench). Each box to the right increased the distance by an order of magnitude, so the third box was 100 feet up and revealed much of the park. Then 1,000 feet and a large swatch of the city was shown. By the 10th box, our perspective was from outside the orbit of the moon. Only five more boxes were needed to have a perspective outside the solar system. By the 40th box, we could see super clusters of clusters of galaxies.

The distances, and vastness, of all this is almost incomprehensible. Yet somehow, this was all created by a god who is uniquely focused on one species on one planet in all this vastness. Does this not strike anyone else as a bit of an egocentric belief system? The god of all this deigns to manifest as a human to "save" this small species? Does that not set of some alarm bells in some minds that maybe this is wishful thinking? Or does it simply confirm how great this god is because it/he/she cares for such minute things?

[TheLurch]

Hmm... I put it there initially because of the astronomical basis of the OP. My thought was that the nature of the universe can expose a bit of human arrogance. That being siad, perhaps it belongs in the psychology forum instead?

The nature of the Universe is science. The human response to that could be behavioral science, if you decided to focus on our general psychological responses. Instead, you focused on narrow cultural arguments, so i don't see it as belonging here.

Besides, can't we all agree that we're lucky to be here, and should try to do something we consider meaningful with that opportunity? As long as someone's definition of meaningful isn't "become an axe murderer", it would seem to be common ground.

[Sparko]

I personally don't think I am unimportant!

Seriously, I think it's a bit bigger than that (pun intended). The universe is not merely "bigger" or "big;" it is vast beyond comprehension. I was reminded of this recently when I visited a science museum and saw a unique display. It consisted of 40 square, wire-frame, boxes in a series along a wall. In the first one to the left were five books. To the right was how those five books would look from 10 feet away (the perspective went upwards, so the next box revealed that the books were sitting on a park bench). Each box to the right increased the distance by an order of magnitude, so the third box was 100 feet up and revealed much of the park. Then 1,000 feet and a large swatch of the city was shown. By the 10th box, our perspective was from outside the orbit of the moon. Only five more boxes were needed to have a perspective outside the solar system. By the 40th box, we could see super clusters of clusters of galaxies.

The distances, and vastness, of all this is almost incomprehensible. Yet somehow, this was all created by a god who is uniquely focused on one species on one planet in all this vastness. Does this not strike anyone else as a bit of an egocentric belief system? The god of all this deigns to manifest as a human to "save" this small species? Does that not set of some alarm bells in some minds that maybe this is wishful thinking? Or does it simply confirm how great this god is because it/he/she cares for such minute things?

How do you know that we are the only species he created or is interested in?
And one thing to remember is that we will be living forever. That's a long time. Maybe the universe is so big because of that. Maybe we won't be spending eternity on this little ball of mud.

[carpedm9587]

The nature of the Universe is science. The human response to that could be behavioral science, if you decided to focus on our general psychological responses. Instead, you focused on narrow cultural arguments, so i don't see it as belonging here.

I'll leave that to the mods. I don't think I have the power to move it.

Besides, can't we all agree that we're lucky to be here, and should try to do something we consider meaningful with that opportunity? As long as someone's definition of meaningful isn't "become an axe murderer", it would seem to be common ground.

I agree we are lucky to be here, and we should try to do something meaningful with that reality, within that context. As I have said before, if someone believes there is a god and it leads them to make good choices, so be it. However, I recognize in myself a desire to discover what is true, and to eliminate untruths from my beliefs whenever and wherever possible. This observation is one of the many things that caused me to move away from theism/Christianity and towards atheism. I was curious to see how others see it. I recognize there will be some percent who will adopt the "god is so wonderful because he cares so much for a small thing like me" stance, and others who would adopt the "further proof that god is a figment of the human imagination" stance. I hoped to find at least a few responses that were more nuanced, with new observations/insights to consider.

[carpedm9587]

How do you know that we are the only species he created or is interested in?

I don't. But if there were others, would that not be reflected, somehow, in the belief system? Most human religions deal predominantly with the god/human relationship.

And one thing to remember is that we will be living forever. That's a long time. Maybe the universe is so big because of that. Maybe we won't be spending eternity on this little ball of mud.

Ahh... one of those nuanced observations: temporal vastness meets spacial vastness. I like it! Einstein would have too! I suppose that people who believe they are eternal will find that an appealing point of view.

That leads me to wonder why you think you, as a person, are eternal?

[rogue06]

I don't think ANY of us are "in need of salvation."

And yes - my description is a reminder that, in this vast cosmos, we are only as sgnificant as we think we are. And to think that the god of all of this is somehow narrowly focused on our "salvation," to the point of sacrificing himself/itself/herself in human form, seems to me to a) be an extension of the sacrificial lamb theme of MANY religions, and b) be the height of human arrogance. The god of ALL the universe is somehow consumed with the status of an inconsequential species on a backwater planet?

Really?

It is a silly mischaracterization of God to say that He "is somehow consumed with the status of an inconsequential species on a backwater planet"

[carpedm9587]

It is a silly mischaracterization of God to say that He "is somehow consumed with the status of an inconsequential species on a backwater planet"

I wasn't actually making that comment from the perspective of "god." Rather, I was making that comment from the perspective of human religions; they are pretty much all about how this god is focused on human salvation - human behavior - etc. The holy books of the various religions do talk about the creative force of this god, but then they deal pretty much exclusively with god/man dynamics.

[Cerebrum123]

I personally don't think I am unimportant!

Seriously, I think it's a bit bigger than that (pun intended). The universe is not merely "bigger" or "big;" it is vast beyond comprehension. I was reminded of this recently when I visited a science museum and saw a unique display. It consisted of 40 square, wire-frame, boxes in a series along a wall. In the first one to the left were five books. To the right was how those five books would look from 10 feet away (the perspective went upwards, so the next box revealed that the books were sitting on a park bench). Each box to the right increased the distance by an order of magnitude, so the third box was 100 feet up and revealed much of the park. Then 1,000 feet and a large swatch of the city was shown. By the 10th box, our perspective was from outside the orbit of the moon. Only five more boxes were needed to have a perspective outside the solar system. By the 40th box, we could see super clusters of clusters of galaxies.

The distances, and vastness, of all this is almost incomprehensible. Yet somehow, this was all created by a god who is uniquely focused on one species on one planet in all this vastness. Does this not strike anyone else as a bit of an egocentric belief system? The god of all this deigns to manifest as a human to "save" this small species? Does that not set of some alarm bells in some minds that maybe this is wishful thinking? Or does it simply confirm how great this god is because it/he/she cares for such minute things?

It's still assigning things worth based on their size. It doesn't matter how vast, or incomprehensible those sizes are compared to us. If you find a rich man with a mansion to you immediately think he values it more than his own family*?

Psalm 8[a]
For the director of music. According to gittith.[b] A psalm of David.
1 Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

You have set your glory
in the heavens.
2 Through the praise of children and infants
you have established a stronghold against your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.
3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?[c]

5 You have made them[d] a little lower than the angels[e]
and crowned them[f] with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their[g] feet:
7 all flocks and herds,
and the animals of the wild,
8 the birds in the sky,
and the fish in the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.

9 Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Also, go read or watch "Horton Hears a Who". The very fact that Horton cared for the Who's when no one else would even believe they existed is part of why it's a good book. The movie is also hilarious.

*Not saying there aren't people out there who value possessions more than family, but it shouldn't be assumed merely due to the size of their property how much importance they place on anyone.

[carpedm9587]

It's still assigning things worth based on their size. It doesn't matter how vast, or incomprehensible those sizes are compared to us. If you find a rich man with a mansion to you immediately think he values it more than his own family*?

Psalm 8[a]
For the director of music. According to gittith.[b] A psalm of David.
1 Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

You have set your glory
in the heavens.
2 Through the praise of children and infants
you have established a stronghold against your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.
3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?[c]

5 You have made them[d] a little lower than the angels[e]
and crowned them[f] with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their[g] feet:
7 all flocks and herds,
and the animals of the wild,
8 the birds in the sky,
and the fish in the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.

9 Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Also, go read or watch "Horton Hears a Who". The very fact that Horton cared for the Who's when no one else would even believe they existed is part of why it's a good book. The movie is also hilarious.

*Not saying there aren't people out there who value possessions more than family, but it shouldn't be assumed merely due to the size of their property how much importance they place on anyone.

I think comparing a mansion/family with the universe/humanity is just a bit of a stretch. And your psalm sort of underscores my point: apparently humanity has been made "just less than the angels" and all of these vast cosmos are "under our feet." The egocentrism of this point of view just jumps off the page at me. It seems to me that we have let go of geocentrism, but not anthropocentrism or egocentrism. Humanity plays prominently in this apparently god-centered universe. Interesting that the books that make all of these claims were written by humanity itself.

I see a pattern in that...

[seer]

I don't think ANY of us are "in need of salvation."

And yes - my description is a reminder that, in this vast cosmos, we are only as sgnificant as we think we are. And to think that the god of all of this is somehow narrowly focused on our "salvation," to the point of sacrificing himself/itself/herself in human form, seems to me to a) be an extension of the sacrificial lamb theme of MANY religions, and b) be the height of human arrogance. The god of ALL the universe is somehow consumed with the status of an inconsequential species on a backwater planet?

Really?

Yes, you find some form of sacrificial system or atonement in just about all ancient religions. Which I find interesting - why do we think that we are at odds with whatever god or gods we believe are out there? If I were to make up a god I would invent one that is in happy agreement with all my lusts and selfishness...

[Cow Poke]

Yes, you find some form of sacrificial system or atonement in just about all ancient religions. Which I find interesting - why do we think that we are at odds with whatever god or gods we believe are out there? If I were to make up a god I would invent one that is in happy agreement with all my lusts and selfishness...

You wouldn't invent one who would have you pick up your cross daily?

[seer]

You wouldn't invent one who would have you pick up your cross daily?

I certainly would not invent such a deity... But this desire for atonement seems pretty universal with the ancients. Strange...

[Sparko]

I don't. But if there were others, would that not be reflected, somehow, in the belief system? Most human religions deal predominantly with the god/human relationship.

Because that is all we know about. Nothing in the bible says that we are the only beings in the universe though. Although I guess you could extrapolate that other parts of the universe are fallen also since God said that because of sin the entire creation is groaning.

Ahh... one of those nuanced observations: temporal vastness meets spacial vastness. I like it! Einstein would have too! I suppose that people who believe they are eternal will find that an appealing point of view.

That leads me to wonder why you think you, as a person, are eternal?

Just potentially eternal. Since I have a beginning I can't be completely eternal. God promises eternal life (or 'everlasting' life if you prefer) for those who come to him and ask to be forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus.

[Sparko]

I think comparing a mansion/family with the universe/humanity is just a bit of a stretch. And your psalm sort of underscores my point: apparently humanity has been made "just less than the angels" and all of these vast cosmos are "under our feet." The egocentrism of this point of view just jumps off the page at me. It seems to me that we have let go of geocentrism, but not anthropocentrism or egocentrism. Humanity plays prominently in this apparently god-centered universe. Interesting that the books that make all of these claims were written by humanity itself.

I see a pattern in that...

But basically your objection is nothing but an argument from incredulity.