Multiverses

[Sparko]

I was reading Jim talk about multiverses in Glenn's soul thread and it got me wondering...

If an infinite number of universes are created for every quantum fluctuation or decision in this universe at any given time...

1. Why can't we see these other universes? what separates this universe from them? magic?

2. How can this universe split into an infinite number of universes since it would either mean creating an infinite amount of energy and matter, or splitting up the energy and matter of this universe into an infinite number of new universes. Where you had one universe and X amount of energy and matter, you now have an infinite amount of energy and matter. And that happens an infinite number of times as each new universe splits into an infinite number of other universes every quantum time frame.

[Adrift]

I think the more interesting question is, what spawned the multiverse? Was it a multi-multi-verse? Is it turtles all the way down?

[37818]

With the definition of universe to mean everything. Infinite multiple realities for every quantum fluctuation would still be the one universe. But each reality would begin and end separate from each other.

[little_monkey]

The whole concept of a multiverse is highly hypothetical. You might as well speculate how many angels you can count on the head of a pin.

[Carrikature]

I think the more interesting question is, what spawned the multiverse? Was it a multi-multi-verse? Is it turtles all the way down?

No matter which track you take, there's inevitably something that simply exists and always has.

[Sparko]

No matter which track you take, there's inevitably something that simply exists and always has.

But if there are infinite universes being created every nanosecond, that means if we consider this universe 1, there is one of you, then a nanosecond later there are an infinite number of you. That's a lot of mass coming into existence from nothing all of a sudden. And then it happens again and again. Doesn't seem to make any sense. Maybe they are just potential universes but they don't actualize into reality and only one universe becomes the real one and the others disappear in a poof of logic. So at any one time there is only one universe.

[Carrikature]

But if there are infinite universes being created every nanosecond, that means if we consider this universe 1, there is one of you, then a nanosecond later there are an infinite number of you. That's a lot of mass coming into existence from nothing all of a sudden. And then it happens again and again. Doesn't seem to make any sense. Maybe they are just potential universes but they don't actualize into reality and only one universe becomes the real one and the others disappear in a poof of logic. So at any one time there is only one universe.

First and foremost, I would point you to little_monkey's response in Post #4. With the 'highly hypothetical' aspect kept firmly in mind, there are still possibilities. It's conceivable that conservation of mass and energy are laws only within the universe. There's some indication that our concepts of mass, energy, or time only exist within our universe, after all. Even a pre-BB singularity exists in some form. If you wish to invoke quantum nonsense like too many (ignorant) philosophers, you could portray alternate universes as potentials that are collapsed into the single real universe.

[Sparko]

First and foremost, I would point you to little_monkey's response in Post #4. With the 'highly hypothetical' aspect kept firmly in mind, there are still possibilities. It's conceivable that conservation of mass and energy are laws only within the universe. There's some indication that our concepts of mass, energy, or time only exist within our universe, after all. Even a pre-BB singularity exists in some form. If you wish to invoke quantum nonsense like too many (ignorant) philosophers, you could portray alternate universes as potentials that are collapsed into the single real universe.

But since every universe is the result of this one, then you still have the problem of conservation of mass and energy because this universe IS every one of the infinite branches, if they are as real as this one (I would be typing the same thing in an infinite other universes at this time too). I is confuserated.

[Carrikature]

But since every universe is the result of this one, then you still have the problem of conservation of mass and energy because this universe IS every one of the infinite branches, if they are as real as this one (I would be typing the same thing in an infinite other universes at this time too). I is confuserated.

The conservation only applies within the universe. Look at it this way:

I. Multiverse
A. Universe A
B. Universe B

Conservation applies within A and B, but not necessarily I. If a new universe C is created out of I, it doesn't impinge upon conservation within A or B. We don't have any information about I (including its actual existence).

[Duragizer]

How can this universe split into an infinite number of universes since it would either mean creating an infinite amount of energy and matter, or splitting up the energy and matter of this universe into an infinite number of new universes. Where you had one universe and X amount of energy and matter, you now have an infinite amount of energy and matter. And that happens an infinite number of times as each new universe splits into an infinite number of other universes every quantum time frame.

If you apply eternalism to the many-worlds scenario, then there is no actual splitting; all the universes already co-exist in eternity.

[The Thinker]

I was reading Jim talk about multiverses in Glenn's soul thread and it got me wondering...

If an infinite number of universes are created for every quantum fluctuation or decision in this universe at any given time...

1. Why can't we see these other universes? what separates this universe from them? magic?

2. How can this universe split into an infinite number of universes since it would either mean creating an infinite amount of energy and matter, or splitting up the energy and matter of this universe into an infinite number of new universes. Where you had one universe and X amount of energy and matter, you now have an infinite amount of energy and matter. And that happens an infinite number of times as each new universe splits into an infinite number of other universes every quantum time frame.

1. They are in different dimensions.

2. The total energy of the universe is zero, so an infinite number of universes might also equal a total energy output of zero.

[Kbertsche]

I was reading Jim talk about multiverses in Glenn's soul thread and it got me wondering...

If an infinite number of universes are created for every quantum fluctuation or decision in this universe at any given time...

1. Why can't we see these other universes? what separates this universe from them? magic?

2. How can this universe split into an infinite number of universes since it would either mean creating an infinite amount of energy and matter, or splitting up the energy and matter of this universe into an infinite number of new universes. Where you had one universe and X amount of energy and matter, you now have an infinite amount of energy and matter. And that happens an infinite number of times as each new universe splits into an infinite number of other universes every quantum time frame.

I think you are pointing out a fundamental problem with the "many worlds" interpretation of QM. The claim that "an infinite number of universes are created for every quantum fluctuation or decision in this universe at any given time" seems to me to be a ridiculous, irrational, non-physical claim. How can a physical quantum measurement event (a "wave function collapse" in the Copenhagen interpretation of QM) create a new non-physical universe which can never be detected? The "many worlds" view might be useful for some calculations and conceptualizations, but I don't believe it has anything to do with reality.

[little_monkey]

I think you are pointing out a fundamental problem with the "many worlds" interpretation of QM. The claim that "an infinite number of universes are created for every quantum fluctuation or decision in this universe at any given time" seems to me to be a ridiculous, irrational, non-physical claim. How can a physical quantum measurement event (a "wave function collapse" in the Copenhagen interpretation of QM) create a new non-physical universe which can never be detected? The "many worlds" view might be useful for some calculations and conceptualizations, but I don't believe it has anything to do with reality.

Indeed. Just to add a few points: the MWI came about when it was believed that a particle "existed" in a superposition. Today, that thinking has been discarded. What the wavefunction represents is the possibilities of quantum states the particle can take. Similarly with "wave collapse" - it made sense at the time if you believed that the wavefunction was a "real" wave. But it led to such weird ideas as spooky action at a distance. Now, the wavefunction is taken as a mathematical tool to calculate probabilities. Hence, there is no collapse. And no need of a spooky action at a distance. Furthermore, the wavefunction, which represents a quantum state in ordinary QM, becomes an operator in QFT. So the whole point of being a real wave becomes moot.

[Sparko]

Indeed. Just to add a few points: the MWI came about when it was believed that a particle "existed" in a superposition. Today, that thinking has been discarded. What the wavefunction represents is the possibilities of quantum states the particle can take. Similarly with "wave collapse" - it made sense at the time if you believed that the wavefunction was a "real" wave. But it led to such weird ideas as spooky action at a distance. Now, the wavefunction is taken as a mathematical tool to calculate probabilities. Hence, there is no collapse. And no need of a spooky action at a distance. Furthermore, the wavefunction, which represents a quantum state in ordinary QM, becomes an operator in QFT. So the whole point of being a real wave becomes moot.

cool. thanks. Quantum is pretty weird to begin with, but the idea of entire macrouniverses being created for every possible quantum fluctuation seems just untenable. Especially when you consider the two slit experiment where the idea came from. The interference pattern observed showed that the photon along the "probable" path did register on the detector so it was not actually in some other universe or dimension. It was in this one. So if multiple universes were created then it would seem that we should be able to measure and see them too. But we don't.

[klaus54]

There is distinction between the Many Worlds Interpretation and the Multiverse, is there not?

Could some explain, please?