Sodom and Gomorrah Discovered

[shunyadragon]

Page 11 of the report:

Lowland compared with lowland.

The northern sites are coastal lowland or in a river valley. Judah is uplands.

[tabibito]

Section 1 of that article, the section that you cite, is headed "background".

9. The abundance of pigs depended on rainfall, with 300mm isohyet as the limit.in the fifth and fourth millenium
In the 5th and 4th mill., almost all sites in the non-arid zones of the Fertile Crescent show an occurrence of (domesticated) pigs higher than 7%, with a close correlation between environmental conditions and pig frequencies
In the 3rd mill., the appearance of pigs was affected by a combination of environmental, economic and social factors.

No part of that has any relevance to the time of settlement by Hebrews in the region: the relevant time period and the relevant location.

Further into the article gives more specific details relevant to the Northern Kingdom (Samaria), and to the Southern Kingdom (Judah).

Areas that would be expected to support swine in the southern kingdom don't - except in a very small locality on a trade route that had a broad cultural mix.
Similar areas in the northern kingdom do show the presence of pigs.
All of this supports your earlier assertion, and Biblical records, that show Judah as singular in not adopting the pagan religions of neighbouring states.

The presence of swine in Samaria is recorded in the New Testament - not in Judah.

Again - the most important relevant section in the article is page 11

[shunyadragon]

Section 1 of that article, the section that you cite, is headed "background".

No part of that has any relevance to the time of settlement by Hebrews in the region: the relevant time period and the relevant location.

Further into the article gives more specific details relevant to the Northern Kingdom (Samaria), and to the Southern Kingdom (Judah).

What I cited establishes the environmental and cultural reasons of the pastoral cultures. The details further into the article are compatable with this which gives the environmental and cultural reasons why the Hebrews were a pastoral people.

Areas that would be expected to support swine in the southern kingdom don't - except in a very small locality on a trade route that had a broad cultural mix.
Similar areas in the northern kingdom do show the presence of pigs.

Absolutely False by the information from your source as cited!!!!!!!!

Your attempting to sidestep and dodge the conclusions of the source you cited.

All of this supports your earlier assertion, and Biblical records, that show Judah as singular in not adopting the pagan religions of neighbouring states.

False, that conclusion cannot be reached by the information in this source.

The presence of swine in Samaria is recorded in the New Testament - not in Judah.

So what?!?!?!? that is quite late, and not relevant to the reason why pig bones were found in the locations in the north. They were in lowland coastal areas and along a river, which was an adequate environment for swine.

Again - the most important relevant section in the article is page 11

Page 11 does not even support you. The reason why the Hebrews were a pastoral culture is described on page 2 as I cited. Pastoral cultures have sheep and goats, maybe cattle, not swine. The distinct dry season of Judah makes it unsuitable for swine production.

The key you are ignoring is that the Hebrews were a pastoral culture. None of the pastoral cultures of the world raised pigs.

Source: https://www.academia.edu/4062281/Pig_Husbandry_in_Iron_Age_Israel_and_Judah

1.1. Background Information on Pig Husbandry

The wild boar was quite common in many terminal Pleistocene and early Holocene prehistoric sites


In the 3rd and 4th mill., almost all sites in the non-arid zones of the Fertile Crescent show an occurrence of (domesticated) pigs higher than 7%, with a close correlation between environmental conditions and pig frequencies
9. The abundance of pigs depended on rainfall, with 300mm isohyet as the limit. Starting in the 3rd mill., the appearance of pigs was affected by a combination of environmental, economic and social factors 10 . In studies on the Middle Bronze Age, pig frequency is considered a reference for sedentism.

11, as they cannot be driven far and are not part of nomadic animal husbandry, [pastoral]
12. The pig is one of the livestock animals raised in the southern Levant, but its relative frequency is usually significantly low compared to that of caprines [sheep and goats] or cattle (both dominating the zooarchaeological assemblages from the Bronze Age onward).

13. Pigs breed fast, and do not need to be driven to pasture when there is enough available food, such as vegetables and animal waste. They are usually exploited for their meat, considering the lack of secondary products that can be extracted from them. They cannot be driven far and hence domestic pigs are not suitable for nomadic life.

© Copyright Original Source

[tabibito]

The key you are ignoring is that the Hebrews were a pastoral culture. None of the pastoral cultures of the world raised pigs.

The Hebrews had a largely sedentary culture from around 1000 BC. That is, they were for the most part not nomadic herders - they had towns, industries, trade centres, kings ... the whole box and dice that bespeaks sedentary culture.

Page 11 of that article focuses on pig keeping in the late bronze age through the iron age in Hebrew lands.

Page 11: The most intriguing pattern discovered at sites from the Iron Age IIA–B is the dichotomy between Israel and Judah

Page 13: The origin of taboos on pigs is debated. Reasons for its avoidance include the animal’s natureand behavior
58
, ecological requirements
59
, political-economic decisions
60
and the pastoral-nomadic background of the societies in question
61
. The biblical decree (Lev 11:7; Deut 14:8)comes from the world of Judah in late monarchic and early post-exilic times. Our work demonstrates that pork avoidance fits the reality in Judah in the Iron Age IIB–C (no data forthe Persian period exist for now), but does not reflect daily life in the Northern Kingdom, at least in its lowland sites, in the Iron Age IIB

[Truthseeker]

Oh, dear. I lack knowledge to decide between Shunny and Tabby. Unsubscribing.

[tabibito]

In situations like this, there's only one way ...
read through the fact sheets for yourself.
http://www.academia.edu/4062281/Pig_...rael_and_Judah
As always in papers like this, the wrap-up shows the conclusions drawn by the authors, so the final few paragraphs serve as an overview. The body of the text details the matters that were considered. So - pages 11 to 13 are important, and page 13 serves as a broad overview. Of course, this is only one paper, so it then comes down to whether you consider it to be authoritative.

[shunyadragon]

In situations like this, there's only one way ...
read through the fact sheets for yourself.
http://www.academia.edu/4062281/Pig_...rael_and_Judah
As always in papers like this, the wrap-up shows the conclusions drawn by the authors, so the final few paragraphs serve as an overview. The body of the text details the matters that were considered. So - pages 11 to 13 are important, and page 13 serves as a broad overview. Of course, this is only one paper, so it then comes down to whether you consider it to be authoritative.

A have read through the fact sheet. Page two establishes that Judah does not have a suitable climate for swine. I also cited another source that defines the water needs of swine. The Hebrews were a pastoral culture. No pastoral culture in history had swine herds. Your own source described why pastoral cultures do not have swine. The facts are quite clear.

Source: http://www.academia.edu/4062281/Pig_Husbandry_in_Iron_Age_Israel_and_Judah

Age IIB sites in the lowlands territory of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) pig remains reach high values of 3.2–7.8% (unfortunately, no data from sites in the highlands sector of the Northern Kingdom are available)But the most drastic difference is the one between Israel and Judah. Pig remains are nearly absent from Iron Age IIB sites located in the territory of the Kingdom of Judah. The same holds true for in the highlands west of Jerusalem and for an Iron Age IIB assemblage from the recent ‘Wailing Wall excavations’ in Jerusalem. (the semi-arid area is the only one to standout, with more than 3% pigs. Aroer, as a way-station on the ancient road which connected south Arabia with the Mediterranean littoral, had a unique identity and hence the faunal assemblage of this site may represent food habits of many different people who traveled along the road.

© Copyright Original Source

Page 11 and 12 describes the limited locations in the region where pig bones were found and why.

[shunyadragon]

The Hebrews had a largely sedentary culture from around 1000 BC. That is, they were for the most part not nomadic herders - they had towns, industries, trade centres, kings ... the whole box and dice that bespeaks sedentary culture.

This is highly questionable by the evidence. After the exile yes.

Page 11 of that article focuses on pig keeping in the late bronze age through the iron age in Hebrew lands.

Page 11: The most intriguing pattern discovered at sites from the Iron Age IIA–B is the dichotomy between Israel and Judah.

Only in selected locations, and it gave the reason why.

. The biblical decree (Lev 11:7; Deut 14:8)comes from the world of Judah in late monarchic and early post-exilic times. Our work demonstrates that pork avoidance fits the reality in Judah in the Iron Age IIB–C (no data forthe Persian period exist for now), but does not reflect daily life in the Northern Kingdom, at least in its lowland sites, in the Iron Age IIB

Deuteronomy was written after the exile.

Your overstated the summary on page 13 as supporting your position. The reasons cited in this article confirm my view. Read this again with proper and clear complete citation . . .

Source: https://www.academia.edu/4062281/Pig_Husbandry_in_Iron_Age_Israel_and_Judah

This brings us back to where we started – the biblical prohibition of pork consumption. The origin of taboos on pigs is debated. Reasons for its avoidance include the animal’s nature and behavior, ecological requirements, political-economic decisions, and the pastoral-nomadic background of the societies in question.

© Copyright Original Source

Note no information on the Persian period, and the Biblical decree was written post exile as was Deuteronomy. Note the final highlighted statement from page 13.

Source: https://www.academia.edu/4062281/Pig_Husbandry_in_Iron_Age_Israel_and_Judah

The biblical decree (Lev 11:7; Deut 14:8) comes from the world of Judah in late monarchic and early post-exilic times. Our work demonstrates that pork avoidance fits the reality in Judah in the Iron Age IIB–C (no data for the Persian period exist for now), but does not reflect daily life in the Northern Kingdom, at least in its lowland sites, in the Iron Age IIB. One may wonder why the biblical author promoted the obvious – pig avoidance – which was the reality in the highlands in the Iron Age I and in the Judahite lowlands and highlands throughout the Iron Age II. Pig taboo could have emerged in the highlands – in the north and in the south – as a result of the pastoral background of many of the Iron Age I settlers and the need to create a “we”-and-“they”-boundary with the Philistines in the southern lowlands.

© Copyright Original Source

The Philistines lived in the coastal lowlands west of Judah where it was suitable for swine production.

[Mr. Anderson]

Stager (1991a,31). Cf. Hesse (1986) Stager was the excavator of Ashkelon, Brian Hesse was his staff zoo-archaeologist from the University of Alabama. He documented the shift in domesticated species at the end of the Late Bronze Age and at the beginning of the Iron Age (12th century BC). The shift was from sheep and goats to pigs and cattle. This shift occurred in Ashkelon and other coastal sites, but not in the central highland villages of the same period dominated by Israelite settlements like Ai, Raddani, and Elba. From a strictly ecological perspective, this seems suprising. The oak-pine-terebinth woodlands that dominated the central hill country of Canaan, where the earliest Israelite settlements of about 1200 B.C. are to be found, are ideally suited for pig production, especially because of the shade and acorns.

Which means the hilltop regions weren't semi arid, as whatever area you have been describing was. The 300 villages found also had cistren-systems that could have handled a water supply for some hog production if it had been desired.

[Mr. Anderson]

.
Not ignoring the main issue at all, but addressing both in the post. There are both distinguishing features in every culture, but there are also shared cultural attributes between Hebrews and the surrounding cultures, like language, scripture and religion.

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Anderson
You've got Dever responding in a limited fashion during an interview about the Iron age hilltop settlements. In his book, quoted in an earlier post he give the full on description of what was found within the remains. Of the more than 300 discovered village sites they have found only one small isolated hilltop shrine in the Samaria hills, with an alter platform, and one large standing stone (masseba), a terra cotta cult stand and a well preserved bronze bull figurine. Suggesting connections to the Canaanite cult of the male deity El, whose principle epithet was "Bull El." El remained one of the two names of the Israelite national god.



You jump to such a conclusion so quickly from 1 isolated cultic site in the Samaritan hilltop area, near no villages from over 300 village sites extending throughout the entire hilltop region. Of which in the 300 sites no cultic objects were found. No scripture, no observable archaeological religious practice. With a completely differing culture, well they ate food and wore clothes like their neighbors.

[shunyadragon]

Stager (1991a,31). Cf. Hesse (1986) Stager was the excavator of Ashkelon, Brian Hesse was his staff zoo-archaeologist from the University of Alabama. He documented the shift in domesticated species at the end of the Late Bronze Age and at the beginning of the Iron Age (12th century BC). The shift was from sheep and goats to pigs and cattle. This shift occurred in Ashkelon and other coastal sites, but not in the central highland villages of the same period dominated by Israelite settlements like Ai, Raddani, and Elba. From a strictly ecological perspective, this seems suprising. The oak-pine-terebinth woodlands that dominated the central hill country of Canaan, where the earliest Israelite settlements of about 1200 B.C. are to be found, are ideally suited for pig production, especially because of the shade and acorns.

Which means the hilltop regions weren't semi arid, as whatever area you have been describing was. The 300 villages found also had cistren-systems that could have handled a water supply for some hog production if it had been desired.

The problem remains of the water needs of swine. The coastal region is suitable for swine production where the Philistines lived in Southern coastal region , but the dryer central highlands of Judah have a dry season where three to four months with little or no rain. Swine production needs both a consistent food and water source. Actually all the known locations where pig bones are found in any numbers are in the coastal plains and along rivers. The one location in Southern Judah where pig bones were found is on a trade route from the coast to Arabia.

Yes, they could have developed a cistern or some other water system to support hogs, water priorities for human needs makes pastoral agriculture the easy and efficient alternative. Also cycles of drought over time in this region preclude any efforts to make special consideration for water for hogs when the pastoral goat and sheep can survive. This is consistently true in ALL pastoral regions of the world where water resources are limited. The net lose of water resources in the region results in the Jordon River flowing into the salt Dead Sea, which is a strong indicator of the limited water resources in Southern Judah.

I cited the water requirements for swine from two sources. The coastal regions are better suited to sedentary agricultural cultures, and the highlands throughout Israel are better suited for pastoral sheep and goat cultures.

I think Ockham's razor applies here trumping an up hill fight to justify a religious agenda.

The problem with considering the Divine prohibition for eating pork making the Hebrew culture unique, because it is unclean as the reason Hebrew's do not eat pork instead of the obvious natural consistent reasons is that if this is the case, then no one should eat pork by Divine mandate..

[shunyadragon]

Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Anderson
You've got Dever responding in a limited fashion during an interview about the Iron age hilltop settlements. In his book, quoted in an earlier post he give the full on description of what was found within the remains. Of the more than 300 discovered village sites they have found only one small isolated hilltop shrine in the Samaria hills, with an alter platform, and one large standing stone (masseba), a terra cotta cult stand and a well preserved bronze bull figurine. Suggesting connections to the Canaanite cult of the male deity El, whose principle epithet was "Bull El." El remained one of the two names of the Israelite national god.



You jump to such a conclusion so quickly from 1 isolated cultic site in the Samaritan hilltop area, near no villages from over 300 village sites extending throughout the entire hilltop region. Of which in the 300 sites no cultic objects were found. No scripture, no observable archaeological religious practice. With a completely differing culture, well they ate food and wore clothes like their neighbors.

I disagree that they were that much of a distinctively different culture. All cultures develop some distinctive features over time. Limited evidence is still evidence. They developed a similar written language based on other languages around them, but since they were not involved with extensive trade, and it evolved slower from the influence of Ugarit, Canaanite and Egyptian. then the cultures around them. There is no evidence that I know of that makes them that distinctive from any other pastoral culture of the world. They were a pastoral culture pretty much like all pastoral cultures that made the transition to sedentary Iron Age Culture. The pastoral cultures of Xinjiang made a similar transition and remained a pastoral sheep and goat culture even though they had villages raised olives, grapes, fruit and other crops. Pastoral regions like Xinjiang and Mongolia did not eat pork long before Islam came to the regions prohibiting the consumption of pork. In the same manner the Divine mandate in Deuteronomy is after the exile for a pastoral culture that already did not eat pork before the exile.

[Mr. Anderson]

Yes, they could have developed a cistern or some other water system to support hogs, water priorities for human needs makes pastoral agriculture the easy and efficient alternative. Also cycles of drought over time in this region preclude any efforts to make special consideration for water for hogs when the pastoral goat and sheep can survive. This is consistently true in ALL pastoral regions of the world where water resources are limited. The net lose of water resources in the region results in the Jordon River flowing into the salt Dead Sea, which is a strong indicator of the limited water resources in Southern Judah.

I cited the water requirements for swine from two sources. The coastal regions are better suited to sedentary agricultural cultures, and the highlands throughout Israel are better suited for pastoral sheep and goat cultures.

I think Ockham's razor applies here trumping an up hill fight to justify a religious agenda.

The problem with considering the Divine prohibition for eating pork making the Hebrew culture unique, because it is unclean as the reason Hebrew's do not eat pork instead of the obvious natural consistent reasons is that if this is the case, then no one should eat pork by Divine mandate..

Not could have developed water cistrens to provide a water supply capable of some hog production. They did produce these cistrens in all the 300 discovered villages these cistrens were found in abundance.

The razor falls on the side of the evidence and exposes a different agenda on your uphill religious battle. The natural reproduction process of pigs with 8 to 12 piglets per litter, with possibilities of multiple litters per year, far exceeds the 1 or 2 offspring per year of sheep,goats, or cattle far out waying the benefits of pastoral animals. Plus it is far easier to defend pigs from any threat as they are local and not out in the pasture somewhere. The same water problems that apply to pigs also applies to humans, who,s population in the hill country grew from 20,000 to 45,000 in the 12 century to possibly 100,000 to 120,000 people by the 10 century even by Finkelstines minimal opinion. They were able to meet their water needs in such a way as to be archaeologically provable.

Try again

[Mr. Anderson]

I disagree that they were that much of a distinctively different culture. All cultures develop some distinctive features over time. Limited evidence is still evidence. They developed a similar written language based on other languages around them, but since they were not involved with extensive trade, and it evolved slower from the influence of Ugarit, Canaanite and Egyptian. then the cultures around them. There is no evidence that I know of that makes them that distinctive from any other pastoral culture of the world. They were a pastoral culture pretty much like all pastoral cultures that made the transition to sedentary Iron Age Culture. The pastoral cultures of Xinjiang made a similar transition and remained a pastoral sheep and goat culture even though they had villages raised olives, grapes, fruit and other crops. Pastoral regions like Xinjiang and Mongolia did not eat pork long before Islam came to the regions prohibiting the consumption of pork. In the same manner the Divine mandate in Deuteronomy is after the exile for a pastoral culture that already did not eat pork before the exile.

Really reaching.

I can claim the bolded section as proof that the hilltop peoples were distinctive from the outset as biblically described,with an evolving culture that gradually homoginized over time. Thank you for that.

So, limited evidence is still evidence is something that is acceptable in your perception of historical events. To bad you wont allow it in mine.

[shunyadragon]

Really reaching.

I can claim the bolded section as proof that the hilltop peoples were distinctive from the outset as biblically described,with an evolving culture that gradually homoginized over time. Thank you for that.

I do not consider it reaching by any means. The matter of fact evidence when comparing the evolution of the Hebrew culture with other pastoral cultures of the world fits a more universal picture of the cultural evolution of humanity, and not the claim that the Hebrew culture in some way evolved uniquely. I consider trying fit the evidence into a religious agenda to be 'really reaching.'

So, limited evidence is still evidence is something that is acceptable in your perception of historical events. To bad you wont allow it in mine.

It is not a matter of allowable one way or another. There is a matter of fact that any monotheistic centering on a YHWY God is after the exile. Absolutely none prior to the exile period. We do have evidence of a Canaanite like religious belief system, even though limited, and distinctive Ugarit/Canaanite linguistic and scriptural links.

I do believe that the monotheistic Hebrew identity evolved more in the exile period, and upon return asserted it over the prevailing mixed monotheistic/polytheistic beliefs of the Hebrews and others in Judah and the rest of Palestine as portrayed in the example of the Exodus condemning the belief in the Bull or Golden Calf idol of God, and asserting the dominance of the YHWY God. Actually the story of Moses and the Exodus is symbolic of the return from exile and asserting the monotheistic YHWY God, and Law Divinely revealed by God.

Where is the evidence for the claim that a YHWY monotheistic culture existed prior to the exile?