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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Confirmations of the New Testament
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Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThese are not canons,
Repeating this assertion does not make it any more factual. Yes, there are no exant autographs;
Despite your protestations, even critical scholars date 2 Peter to c. AD 125, making it a very early reference to Paul's letters as 'scripture' regardless of its provenance.
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...o-in-1-cor-154
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe weakness in any argument lee merrill and you offer is that there there are no first autographs known, nor any evidence what they actually composed of. There is evidence of an early simpler gospel Q, but it is inconclusive. Lee's citations only reflect the authors personal experiences, and reflections just as believers do today, and ah . . the fact that others wrote about it before Luke, which is already accepted that Mark first, than Matthew, than Luke were compiled in that order..
Also, 'within a hundred years' is established - and even if it weren't, the documentation is SO solid that it cannot be rationally discarded."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostYou have far more patience than I. I would have long since metaphorically shaken the dust from my feet and left the infidel to his way.
Yeah, no - trust me, I don't."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThan it will be understood that you endorse the name calling rhetoric of Teallaura, which reflects his lack of patience and understanding of those who believe differently.
If you don't wanna play dodge ball, stop throwing the ball at people."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostJust because you're making a moronic argument doesn't mean I'm calling you a moron...
If you don't wanna play dodge ball, stop throwing the ball at people.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostThe weakness of your argument is that it literally tosses 99.9999% of all ancient documentation. You don't get to apply a standard selectively - if it applies to Scripture, it applies to other ancient works, virtually none of which can bear that kind of irrational scrutiny.
Also, 'within a hundred years' is established - and even if it weren't, the documentation is SO solid that it cannot be rationally discarded.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe historians nor I are not biased on any one ancient historical document. All ancient documents are open to skepticism as I referenced when rogue brought up Julius Caesar's commentaries, which are NOT considered authoritative in any way, and contain conflicts with archaeological evidence. There is no standard of selectivity. Can you name one ancient document that historians selectively endorse over another? Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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But the question is whether we think this is reasonably what Julius Caesar wrote. If so, we consider them authentic (not necessarily authoritative), even though we don't have copies that are fresh after Caesar wrote.
Within a hundred years even whether it is so or not does not make the documentation solid in anyway, as referenced by Tassman and I referenced by academic historians.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe Muratorian Canon is evidence that as early as 170 CE there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to the twenty-seven-book NT canon, which included four gospels. But there were other books included in it as well. And the other canons or codices also included or omitted various other revered texts during the first 300+ years, i.e. until the Athanasian canon finally gave us the New Testament as we now know it.
Nevertheless, no autographs are extant for the NT. Its most likely earliest form must be reconstructed from later copies as decided by committee vote. You are arguing for the inerrancy of the hypothetical 'original' but there is no such letter-perfect manuscript that is known to have ever existed. Certainly, none is available today.
But Paul himself is believed to be referring to the Hebrew scriptures e.g. in 1 Cor 15:4
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...o-in-1-cor-154
I'll take your collective inability to address the main thrusts of the points I was making as tacit admission that you have no answer for them, but can't bring yourself to concede the overall conversation.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI see you decided to omit the meat of my argument.
Again, I note you decided to omit the part where I vehemently disagreed with you in favor of again asserting the portion with which I agreed. 2) "committee vote" just happens to be how the current set of (Protestant) scholars have opined; the result is not significantly different that Erasmus' hurried collation 500 years ago. 3) I made no such argument. Try not to burn straw men, hey?
Well, yes. That's entirely beside the point of the argument I was making, however.
I'll take your collective inability to address the main thrusts of the points I was making as tacit admission that you have no answer for them, but can't bring yourself to concede the overall conversation.
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OPB already took you to task in post #67 for propagating this "living text" idea that the Alands themselves had already abandoned by the time the 1995 edition of their book was coming out, so why are you still going on about it like nothing happened? You think if you just act like his post never happened we'll all forget about it or something?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostOPB already took you to task in post #67 for propagating this "living text" idea that the Alands themselves had already abandoned by the time the 1995 edition of their book was coming out, so why are you still going on about it like nothing happened? You think if you just act like his post never happened we'll all forget about it or something?Last edited by Tassman; 09-06-2019, 05:07 AM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNevertheless, no autographs are extant for the NT. Its earliest form must be reconstructed via educated guess-work by scholars from later copies.
Furthermore, other books no longer in the canon were included in some sets of scripture and there were some in the current canon that were excluded.
But not so freely that the editors of the NT text cannot reasonably determine what is probably the original reading. Re Aland and Aland...
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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