Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Bisto]

Random positive reinforcement explains the belief in miracle healings much better, at least to me, than that God is a miser with his healings. Christians can pull out the ol' "his ways are not our ways" card, but I think that statement is nothing but spin.

Come on friend, I'm trying to use scientific reasoning here!! Don't cut my wings.

What such a study could show, if made properly, would be e.g. the probability that any difference in average "sudden recoveries" per capita per year is due to chance. The results could go both ways. Maybe, for example, sampled atheist communities get significantly more sudden recoveries than Christian communities, and there's a 0.3% chance it's just luck, while there's not a significant difference between the amount of sudden recoveries by socioeconomic factors (1st vs. 3rd world). (Obviously, these are made up figures for the sake of example.) That's how it would work. And having that data would be useful, certainly more useful than our hunches of what those probabilities could be, either yours or mine.

And I repeat such a study would have nothing to say on prayer effectiveness per se. If you're gonna discuss that, don't do it with me

[One Bad Pig]

Come on, guys. You are all educated.

Yes, which is why we don't put any stock in your goofy, contrived arguments. No one but your cheerleading squad is going to think comparing eating with rats to praying for healing to be anything close to rational or valid. I would respect a truly rational argument against Christianity, though I might not agree with it. Your over-the-top, emotion-laden tirades evoke the opposite reaction to what you seem to expect. They didn't work on me in church, they don't work on me here.

[JimL]

Gullible, yes. Stupid, no.

I blame the gullibility not on a lack of intelligence but the effects of the massive influence of supernaturalism on our culture and its history in our culture. If we had all been brought up being told that invisible fairies run the world, and our society accepted this as the "preferred" world view as our culture "prefers" Christianity, most people would probably believe in the powers of fairies.

Christians are not stupid, not at all. They are under the spell of an ancient, fear-based tale that has dominated western culture for almost two millennia.

Also known today as memes. Inculcated ideas or beliefs passed on from generation to generation like a virus.

[lilpixieofterror]

Gullible, yes. Stupid, no.

I blame the gullibility not on a lack of intelligence but the effects of the massive influence of supernaturalism on our culture and its history in our culture. If we had all been brought up being told that invisible fairies run the world, and our society accepted this as the "preferred" world view as our culture "prefers" Christianity, most people would probably believe in the powers of fairies.

Christians are not stupid, not at all. They are under the spell of an ancient, fear-based tale that has dominated western culture for almost two millennia.

More of your stupidity Gary? By all medical experience, my husband shouldn't have lived past infancy, let alone be closing on his 29th birthday. Sounds like to me you're just letting your preassumptions leak into your conclusions vs actually dealing with the evidence before you. Believe it or not, people do recover from incurable diseases and conditions (just to name one example). It happens enough that there's actually a name for it, it's called spontaneous remission and there's thousands of cases of it happening. Although it is quite cute though to watch you call Christians a bunch of names, while getting upset when I called you names. Hypocrisy is only bad when Christians are guilty of it, right Gary?

[lilpixieofterror]

Also known today as memes. Inculcated ideas or beliefs passed on from generation to generation like a virus.

Fundy atheist preassumptions that miracles are impossible because they are impossible is always amusing to watch.

[lilpixieofterror]

Yes, which is why we don't put any stock in your goofy, contrived arguments. No one but your cheerleading squad is going to think comparing eating with rats to praying for healing to be anything close to rational or valid. I would respect a truly rational argument against Christianity, though I might not agree with it. Your over-the-top, emotion-laden tirades evoke the opposite reaction to what you seem to expect. They didn't work on me in church, they don't work on me here.

When you can't refute what your opponents believe or say, assertions and emotional based arguments are a nice alternative.

[psstein]

Yes, which is why we don't put any stock in your goofy, contrived arguments. No one but your cheerleading squad is going to think comparing eating with rats to praying for healing to be anything close to rational or valid. I would respect a truly rational argument against Christianity, though I might not agree with it. Your over-the-top, emotion-laden tirades evoke the opposite reaction to what you seem to expect. They didn't work on me in church, they don't work on me here.

Brothers and Sisters, have you heard the good news? Miracles don't happen, so I can ignore any evidence that could possibly indicate they do.

Can I get an amen, brothers?

[Gary]

Brothers and Sisters, have you heard the good news? Miracles don't happen, so I can ignore any evidence that could possibly indicate they do.

Can I get an amen, brothers?

Wrong. I want evidence for Keener's miracles. So far he has only presented hearsay.

[Gary]

Chapters 8 and 9 are full of miracle claims from Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Some of the stories are absolutely amazing. The lame walk; the blind see; the deaf hear; the dead come back to life...all due to prayers to the Christian God.

Here is Keener's conclusion to Chapter 8:

" In chapter 7 I noted that from Africa, Asia, and Latin America, hundreds of millions of people claim to have witnessed or experienced miraculous healings... " p. 308

Hundreds of millions!

We aren't talking about a few hundred miracles, folks. We are talking about hundreds of millions of claimed miracles! Yet...western medicine ignores these hundreds of millions of miracles and stubbornly plods on with painstakingly slow, methodical research based on the empirical method. If they would only say a simple prayer to Jesus they could accomplish so much more, so much more quickly!

Dear Readers: Do you really believe that western medicine is so arrogant, so stubborn, and so callously indifferent to the suffering of hundreds of millions of human beings worldwide that they would ignore and hand wave away these hundreds of millions of quick healings if there were even the slightest suggestion that prayer has the impact on global health that Mr. Keener wants us to believe it does? Do you really believe that western medicine would refuse to spend the money to study the veracity of these hundreds of millions of claims if there was even a shred of good evidence to support them? Do you really believe that western scientists and physicians hate the Christian God so much that they would turn their backs on hundreds of millions of suffering people?

Ridiculous!

There is no conspiracy in Science or in Medicine to defraud patients of a potentially beneficial treatment. There is only one reason why western medicine and science does not pursue the power of miracle healings by prayer: the evidence for these claims is pathetic!

Don't buy into conspiracy theories, folks. Don't believe anecdotal claims of miracle cures, such as Keener's story in chapter 8 that a young Indian girl fell out of a window one hundred feet up and when taken to the hospital, didn't have a single scratch on her because "someone" invisible had caught her and prevented her from hitting the ground! This is silly, superstitious nonsense, folks. It is ignorant hysteria. It is the same type of ignorant hysteria that is very likely to be the basis of the early Christian belief in the post death sightings of Jesus.

I will continue to read Keener until I finish his two volume work, but I sincerely hope that he will eventually provide some good medical documentation; documentation that we can all verify and investigate; for at least one of his miracle claims.

[Secular Liberation]

Chapters 8 and 9 are full of miracle claims from Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Some of the stories are absolutely amazing. The lame walk; the blind see; the deaf hear; the dead come back to life...all due to prayers to the Christian God.

Here is Keener's conclusion to Chapter 8:

" In chapter 7 I noted that from Africa, Asia, and Latin America, hundreds of millions of people claim to have witnessed or experienced miraculous healings... " p. 308

Hundreds of millions!

We aren't talking about a few hundred miracles, folks. We are talking about hundreds of millions of claimed miracles! Yet...western medicine ignores these hundreds of millions of miracles and stubbornly plods on with painstakingly slow, methodical research based on the empirical method. If they would only say a simple prayer to Jesus they could accomplish so much more, so much more quickly!

Dear Readers: Do you really believe that western medicine is so arrogant, so stubborn, and so callously indifferent to the suffering of hundreds of millions of human beings worldwide that they would ignore and hand wave away these hundreds of millions of quick healings if there were even the slightest suggestion that prayer has the impact on global health that Mr. Keener wants us to believe it does? Do you really believe that western medicine would refuse to spend the money to study the veracity of these hundreds of millions of claims if there was even a shred of good evidence to support them? Do you really believe that western scientists and physicians hate the Christian God so much that they would turn their backs on hundreds of millions of suffering people?

Ridiculous!

There is no conspiracy in Science or in Medicine to defraud patients of a potentially beneficial treatment. There is only one reason why western medicine and science does not pursue the power of miracle healings by prayer: the evidence for these claims is pathetic!

Don't buy into conspiracy theories, folks. Don't believe anecdotal claims of miracle cures, such as Keener's story in chapter 8 that a young Indian girl fell out of a window one hundred feet up and when taken to the hospital, didn't have a single scratch on her because "someone" invisible had caught her and prevented her from hitting the ground! This is silly, superstitious nonsense, folks. It is ignorant hysteria. It is the same type of ignorant hysteria that is very likely to be the basis of the early Christian belief in the post death sightings of Jesus.

I will continue to read Keener until I finish his two volume work, but I sincerely hope that he will eventually provide some good medical documentation; documentation that we can all verify and investigate; for at least one of his miracle claims.

It's a shame people can remain so deluded when they've seen all the evidence to the contrary to their superstitious nonsense.

[Apologiaphoenix]

It's a shame people can remain so deluded when they've seen all the evidence to the contrary to their superstitious nonsense.

Oh the irony....

[One Bad Pig]

Why would claims of miracles be lower in Europe and higher in Africa and Latin America? Isn't that odd? Keener (and Nick) do not claim that the gods of other religions have the power to perform miracles. They both claim that God (the Christian God) may perform miracles even for people who are not Christian, due to his benevolent nature. But if (the Christian) God is not responsible for the "miracle", then it was due to the other supernatural power in the world: Satan.

Having read through chapter 6 myself, there is no possible way to construe that as Mr. Keener's position. He presents that as one philosophical possibility among others.

Other tidbits. You agree with Mr. Keener that Hume's argument is circular. How does Mr. Keener open his comments on this?

Source: Keener, page 161

As I have been noting, Hume implies that he is arguing inductively. He actually, however, argues deductively based on a conclusion that rests on an inadequate range of data, partly because it has a priori excluded disagreeable evidence. Rather than allowing genuine induction based on evidence, Hume produced a deductive approach that a priori virtually excluded the evidence for miracles.

© Copyright Original Source

Given you admit to ignoring evidence for the metaphysical, there is not one whit of difference between Hume's approach and your own.

Here's another way in which you ape Hume:

Source: Keener, page 166

Hume uses many bogus claims of miracles (already rejected by many Christian critics) to deny the reality of any miracles. This guilt-by-association approach, however, reflects the logical fallacy of false analogy, of generalizing based on specific cases without examining other cases that may differ in relevant details. Hume thus effectively argues here against a straw man.

© Copyright Original Source

If you're going to accuse others of using logical fallacies, Gary, it helps your case if you avoid using them yourself.

[One Bad Pig]

You're hyperventilating again, Gary. That's a sure sign, given your past antics here, that you've run into evidence you can't otherwise wave away.

Ridiculous!

There is no conspiracy in Science or in Medicine to defraud patients of a potentially beneficial treatment. There is only one reason why western medicine and science does not pursue the power of miracle healings by prayer: the evidence for these claims is pathetic!

No, it's because Christianity has pretty much always used prayer alongside of physicians, not as an alternative to them.

[Gary]

Having read through chapter 6 myself, there is no possible way to construe that as Mr. Keener's position. He presents that as one philosophical possibility among others.

Other tidbits. You agree with Mr. Keener that Hume's argument is circular. How does Mr. Keener open his comments on this?

Source: Keener, page 161

As I have been noting, Hume implies that he is arguing inductively. He actually, however, argues deductively based on a conclusion that rests on an inadequate range of data, partly because it has a priori excluded disagreeable evidence. Rather than allowing genuine induction based on evidence, Hume produced a deductive approach that a priori virtually excluded the evidence for miracles.

© Copyright Original Source

Given you admit to ignoring evidence for the metaphysical, there is not one whit of difference between Hume's approach and your own.

Here's another way in which you ape Hume:

Source: Keener, page 166

Hume uses many bogus claims of miracles (already rejected by many Christian critics) to deny the reality of any miracles. This guilt-by-association approach, however, reflects the logical fallacy of false analogy, of generalizing based on specific cases without examining other cases that may differ in relevant details. Hume thus effectively argues here against a straw man.

© Copyright Original Source

If you're going to accuse others of using logical fallacies, Gary, it helps your case if you avoid using them yourself.

You did not correctly state my position. I ignore the metaphysical until someone presents good evidence in support of a particular metaphysical claim. If I completely ignore evidence for the metaphysical as you claim, I wouldn't be reading Keener's book! That is the difference between me and Hume. Hume excluded miracles a priori from consideration. I ignore the "hundreds of millions" of metaphysical claims until someone shows me good evidence for ONE of them.

[Secular Liberation]

Oh the irony....

I don't believe in virgin Mary apparitions, faith-healings and exorcisms pony-boy.