Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Gary]

Friend, I thought you were being funny enough when psycho-analyzing the Apostles and Disciples and giving them (and everyone else involved!) a script of how they should think, dream and react to Jesus' death in order to get a Resurrection belief (of sorts). But now you're performing the same overall procedure to ALL miracle-claim makers? I mean, seriously? I would understand if, from statistics alone, you were to claim that SOME of them behaved thus. But you're doing this for all of them (or most of them, whatever). If your thesis was improbable enough for the Apostles, how improbable is THIS? Is that even a proper way to apply statistics?


Besides, I repeat what I mentioned before: Do you know of any study that might show whether Christians get significantly more of such "sudden recoveries" than other people or not, or something like that? After all, you keep repeating this "miracles are really fast recoveries" thesis, but are these things really so common everywhere as to beget so many miracle claims among Christians and "other superstitious folks" around the world? I wonder, what if these "sudden recoveries" of yours (which would explain most miracle claims, by your word) DO happen more often among Christians (or all similarly "uneducated, superstitious, multi-religion miracle-believers")?

IF, and I repeat, IF that were indeed the case, then I wonder whether you would postulate that miracle claims do not arise from sudden recoveries, but from deception instead.


And I wonder, by your thinking, how does a decapitation/amputation recovery "claim" start. Surely that isn't a sudden recovery. So, what could it be according to you? Lies? O I know, cognitive dissonance!!!

???

Do Christians have any medically confirmed cases of someone who has lost an arm or a leg having that limb reattach itself after a prayer to Jesus?

It is a very simple question.

Do Christians have any confirmed cases of someone who had his head completely severed having that head reattached without the assistance of human hands, and, seeing that person brought back to life?

Yes or no?

The point is very simple: You Christians continue saying that Keener's book provides medical confirmation for his miracle claims. The only claims I have seen so far (the end of chapter 10) is someone alleging that someone else told them that doctors had confirmed the healing. That is hearsay.

My contention is that the claims for which "miracles" are alleged are either unprovable (that Mary conceived Jesus when she was still a virgin by the power of a ghost), or, the claims involve conditions that could be explained by some other natural process, such as someone recovering from pneumonia.

There is no natural recovery for the loss of a major limb (amputation). So if someone had a limb amputated, prayed for healing, and showed up at the doctor's office with his original arm restored...that CANNOT be explained by any natural process. That could only occur by a non-natural power, such as a supernatural being...a god.

And the same is true of a decapitation victim. There is no natural known means to reattach a head and bring the person back to life. So if someone can provide a medically confirmed case of someone recovering from a complete decapitation, that CANNOT be explained by a natural process. That could only happen by a non-natural means, such as a supernatural being...a god.

I believe that if there are no cases of prayers to Jesus healing an amputee or raising a (completely) decapitated person from the dead, this is strong evidence that prayer for miracle healings in the name of Jesus do not occur. It is much more likely that all the events alleged to be miracles are actually natural phenomenon, however rare, that by pure chance are in close proximity to prayers by Christians for healing.

[Gary]

Keener is not, in fact, a Pentecostal. He is a Baptist (who grew up in a non-religious family and started out as an atheist).

Keep reading. I would expect that attempts to seek healing of decapitation are extraordinarily rare, given that most decapitations are deliberate and people present who would be motivated to attempt a reattachment would be prevented from doing so. Most people also accept that the decapitee is clearly dead, and do not bother for that reason. I do understand that you're pursuing this line of attack because you've tacitly lost otherwise.

As for the term "internal decapitation," you would know better than I how to critically evaluate its description based on a Google search.

Craig S. Keener
Author

Craig S. Keener is a North American academic and professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary. Craig received his Ph.D. in New Testament Studies and Christian Origins from Duke University.

Born: 1960

Education: Duke University
Central Bible College
Assemblies of God Theological Seminary

Gary: I don't care what church he currently attends, he graduated from a Pentecostal (Assemblies of God) seminary.

[Raphael]

But you don't have first hand information, friend. You only have SECOND information. Is it possible that your parents and brother were mistaken?

Many young children appear severely bow-legged when they begin to walk, but most of these children will grow out of it in time and walk normally. Is it possible that this was the case with your sister? Is it possible that on the night of the "healing" your parents pushed your sister to attempt to walk "correctly" which she valiantly attempted to do. Then over the following months, her legs naturally took the appropriate anatomical position that would have occurred without the visit to the church that Wednesday evening. So her "healing" wasn't immediate, it only appeared to be.

Apologies for the delay in replying, I've been busy.

I have the eyewitness testimonies of those who were present (including a "hostile witness" in that he is an atheist who denies the supernatural). These are First person testimonies from people who participated in the event. They are Primary Sources. I have been presented with first hand information. My relaying it to you it becomes second hand information.

The doctor said "leg irons for the rest of her life, she will never walk unaided". (Tuesday)
Following evening Prayer Meeting, legs straightened. My folks put her to sit on the floor, and she stood and walked repeatedly on her own for the first time that night. (Wednesday)
Next day Doctors visit, "her legs are now fine, there is no need for any medical correction". (Thursday)


No months, and no pushing her to "valiantly" walk on her own.

[Bisto]

???

...

Please don't say you didn't understand my post or something like that. I'm the undergraduate student, the kid if you will, in this thread. My posts are supposed to be the easy ones to read.

All I'm doing is shaking a branch stemming of your "it's just sudden recoveries" idea, to see what fruit might fall off it.

[Gary]

Apologies for the delay in replying, I've been busy.

I have the eyewitness testimonies of those who were present (including a "hostile witness" in that he is an atheist who denies the supernatural). These are First person testimonies from people who participated in the event. They are Primary Sources. I have been presented with first hand information. My relaying it to you it becomes second hand information.

The doctor said "leg irons for the rest of her life, she will never walk unaided". (Tuesday)
Following evening Prayer Meeting, legs straightened. My folks put her to sit on the floor, and she stood and walked repeatedly on her own for the first time that night. (Wednesday)
Next day Doctors visit, "her legs are now fine, there is no need for any medical correction". (Thursday)


No months, and no pushing her to "valiantly" walk on her own.

If what you describe is what happened, it would be shocking to say the least. It would be extremely hard to explain this as a natural recovery, I agree. But impossible, no.

Bottomline: I would need to see the medical records.

If person A tells a court what he saw, that is first hand testimony. If person B tells the court what person A told person B that A saw, that is second hand information. Person B may be relaying to the court what person B believes person A said...exactly...however, since the eyewitness is not telling the story, it is still second hand information. And second hand information is not considered as good as first hand (eyewitness) testimony.

[Raphael]

If what you describe is what happened, it would be shocking to say the least. It would be extremely hard to explain this as a natural recovery, I agree. But impossible, no.

So watching someone's bent and crippled legs straighten as they are prayed for could still be a natural recovery?

Bottomline: I would need to see the medical records.

As I said they were unfortunately lost about 30 odd years ago. And as I repeatedly saying I wasn't presenting it as evidence to convince you, but explaining it as one of the reasons I believe that God exists and that there are such things as miraculous healings.

If person A tells a court what he saw, that is first hand testimony. If person B tells the court what person A told person B that A saw, that is second hand information. Person B may be relaying to the court what person B believes person A said...exactly...however, since the eyewitness is not telling the story, it is still second hand information. And second hand information is not considered as good as first hand (eyewitness) testimony.

As I said, I have received reliable first hand evidence and I believe it. Infact upon a previous occasion of discussing it here on TWeb some years back, I had a detail wrong (my sister's age at the time of the event), and went back to one of my eyewitnesses and got given the correction.

I have repeatedly stated that because I can no longer present the original medical document coupled with the fact that I am some random bloke on the internet, I don't expect it to convince you.

[Gary]

Review of Chapter 11:

In this chapter, Keener presents cases of miracle claims from the last few decades in the West. One such claim from 1984 is presented on pages 430-432 regarding an eight year old boy, Brad Wilkinson, with a heart defect, called Atrial-Septal Defect, a condition which allows blood to leak from one heart chamber to another. He was scheduled for surgery because "his condition was impairing his lungs as well as his heart." A week before the surgery, the father of the boy takes him to a healing service where the evangelist prays a prayer for healing. However, when the boy undergoes "tests" the following week, they demonstrate that his condition is unchanged. He is scheduled for surgery on the next day.

The next morning, the boy is wheeled into the operating room where a "film" is taken. The doctors are reportedly "shocked"! "A wall of some sort now exists where the leak had been". "It is a miracle!" the doctors allegedly exclaim.

Was it?

Are there any natural explanations for this event? Well, here is one possibility:

Studies show that the majority of Atrial-Septal defects close spontaneously in children. It is possible that the "studies" that were performed a week prior to the surgery were not of the best quality and did not show the new wall (the closing of the defect), or, it did show the closure but was missed by whoever looked at the films.

This case certainly appears dramatic, but since at least one possible, natural explanation exists, this event cannot be chalked up to a divine miracle.

[One Bad Pig]

Craig S. Keener
Author

Craig S. Keener is a North American academic and professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary. Craig received his Ph.D. in New Testament Studies and Christian Origins from Duke University.

Born: 1960

Education: Duke University
Central Bible College
Assemblies of God Theological Seminary

Gary: I don't care what church he currently attends, he graduated from a Pentecostal (Assemblies of God) seminary.

Which hardly means he's a Pentacostal. Non-Mormons graduate from Brigham Young University, and no one calls them Mormons. You are really, really good at believing what you want to believe, no matter how much you have to stretch and/or ignore facts to do so. I don't have nearly enough faith to believe as you do, Gary.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I graduated from a Bible College that was part of the Restoration movement. That's the Campbell-Stone movement that holds to beliefs like Baptismal regeneration and having Communion every Sunday.

I hold to none of those.

I next went to a Seminary that was pre-trib, pre-mill dispensational and it was questionable for awhile if I could get in because of my Preterist views, but I did. My view on eschatology never changed.

I'm back at my original Bible college now for my Master's. My view on baptism and Communion is still the same.

[Adrift]

Friend of mine went to a university affiliated with the Mennonite Church...he has never been a Mennonite and is currently a Methodist pastor.

[Gary]

Which hardly means he's a Pentacostal. Non-Mormons graduate from Brigham Young University, and no one calls them Mormons. You are really, really good at believing what you want to believe, no matter how much you have to stretch and/or ignore facts to do so. I don't have nearly enough faith to believe as you do, Gary.

Your logic is shocking.

If someone goes to a Mormon university, that does not necessarily mean that they are Mormon. If someone attends a Mormon seminary, that is a strong indication that they are Mormon or at least have a strong sympathy for Mormon teachings.

[Gary]

Friend of mine went to a university affiliated with the Mennonite Church...he has never been a Mennonite and is currently a Methodist pastor.

A university is not a seminary.

[Gary]

I graduated from a Bible College that was part of the Restoration movement. That's the Campbell-Stone movement that holds to beliefs like Baptismal regeneration and having Communion every Sunday.

I hold to none of those.

I next went to a Seminary that was pre-trib, pre-mill dispensational and it was questionable for awhile if I could get in because of my Preterist views, but I did. My view on eschatology never changed.

I'm back at my original Bible college now for my Master's. My view on baptism and Communion is still the same.

You don't believe in baptismal regeneration yet you attend a LUTHERAN church???

You sound confused.

[Apologiaphoenix]

You don't believe in baptismal regeneration yet you attend a LUTHERAN church???

You sound confused.

Yes. I did attend a Lutheran church and they knew about my views. They knew about when I was baptized and how it was done and they had no problem with it. I'm even the one who writes out the curriculum.

The point is your case is just flawed. Attending a university with a different stance does not mean you have sympathies with it. I don't have sympathies with dispensationalism. I love dispensationalists, but I think they're entirely wrong.

[Gary]

So far at least, Keener has not presented ONE miracle claim in which he personally interviewed the doctor or doctors in the case. He simply accepts what non-medical people tell him about the medical healing/recovery.

That is not how educated experts investigate claims, folks.

Imagine if I claimed that some guy named Joe Blow told me that he had found an ancient document that says that Jesus fathered five children. The guy says that he showed this document to "New Testament scholars" who were shocked and told him that it must be true! The first question you would ask is, "What are the names of the NT scholars???"

Keener is not doing a professional job of researching these claims. I hope he does a better job in later chapters.