Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[One Bad Pig]

Gary, friend, let me just say I find it hilarious how you transformed the story that Mr. Raphael told into something you could handily repeat at a Skeptics 101 class. Not as funny as your paraphrases of the Resurrection events or abducted cow fables, but close

Sure, there probably are coincidences in some miracle claims, but ALL of them? Really? I'm still intrigued with how you are willing to believe such a complex network of coincidences, luck and whatnot to reject all miracle claims using such methodological handwaves. You ARE aware that the probability of such a conspiracy-level theory sinks further every day that passes by as more "coincidental" healings and else happen around the world. And you ARE aware there is a point when waving it all away would become statistically untenable and you would have to give up.

Gary's already on record as stating:

If good evidence for any of these metaphysical claims is presented to me, I will reconsider my position. But until then, I am on automatic pilot to "ignore all".

In other words, since he's ignoring every claim individually, there can be no stacking of claims such that the probability of them happening will grow.

[Gary]

You are such a hypocrite:

Gary: What a loony, Keener recommends respect for third world folk medicine.
Adrift: You recommend/practice third world folk medicine.
Gary: Shut up idiot! Keener is intelligent and investigates his claims. Stop bearing false witness!

Unbelievable.

And you are an uninformed ignoramus. I'll go back to ignoring you.

[Gary]

Gary, when, e.g., someone who was paralyzed from birth suddenly starts walking at age 4 after prayer, the odds of coincidence are miniscule.

Present the evidence for such a case.

[Gary]

Gary, friend, let me just say I find it hilarious how you transformed the story that Mr. Raphael told into something you could handily repeat at a Skeptics 101 class. Not as funny as your paraphrases of the Resurrection events or abducted cow fables, but close

Sure, there probably are coincidences in some miracle claims, but ALL of them? Really? I'm still intrigued with how you are willing to believe such a complex network of coincidences, luck and whatnot to reject all miracle claims using such methodological handwaves. You ARE aware that the probability of such a conspiracy-level theory sinks further every day that passes by as more "coincidental" healings and else happen around the world. And you ARE aware there is a point when waving it all away would become statistically untenable and you would have to give up.

This is another major false assumption of Christians: that most skeptics believe that the disciples constructed elaborate conspiracies/lies and that people today who believe in miracles are lying. Not at all. Most skeptics believe that most Christians are very sincere in their beliefs. We simply believe that they are mistaken.

Again, I believe that the cause for the belief in miracles is random/intermittent positive reinforcement. Mr. Keener admits that in Asia, Africa, and Latin America a very high percentage of the population believes in miracle healings. Therefore if a very high percentage of people are praying for miracles there is a much higher probability that a spontaneous health recovery is going to occur in close proximity to a prayer for healing. Every time this happens, people who already believe in miracles are going to receive positive reinforcement to believe in miracles even more. People in these areas of the world readily admit that prayer doesn't always work. In fact, they admit that healings due to prayer are relatively infrequent, rare, intermittent. But when they "hit", their belief in the power of prayer is reinforced and another "miracle" is claimed.

In chapter 8, Keener briefly mentions cases of people being dead for several hours and then coming back to life due to prayer. If this occurred every time that Christians prayed for a dead person to be raised from the dead, that would be very impressive evidence of the power of prayer. However, even Keener admits that "raisings from the dead" occur very rarely. So if every time or most times that a Christian dies in these areas of the world, the Christians pray for God to raise the person from the dead, "if it is His will", and once in a great while the person wakes up out of a comma a few hours after being thought to be dead, the belief in the power of prayer will be reinforced, instead of seeing that this is simply a rare, but natural health recovery.

[One Bad Pig]

Present the evidence for such a case.

I don't have much more than that. It happened in Russia, after the child was anointed with myrrh from a streaming icon of Mary. I know, you'll dismiss it because it didn't happen in front of you with doctor's exams before and after. The icon, of the style "softener of evil hearts" has been streaming myrrh since 1998. The owner of the icon travels with it frequently in Russia (he lives just outside of Moscow, and is a former serviceman) and around the world (I saw it last Friday evening), and often hears reports of miraculous cures when he subsequently returns to a location.

[Gary]

I don't have much more than that. It happened in Russia, after the child was anointed with myrrh from a streaming icon of Mary. I know, you'll dismiss it because it didn't happen in front of you with doctor's exams before and after. The icon, of the style "softener of evil hearts" has been streaming myrrh since 1998. The owner of the icon travels with it frequently in Russia (he lives just outside of Moscow, and is a former serviceman) and around the world (I saw it last Friday evening), and often hears reports of miraculous cures when he subsequently returns to a location.

Does the owner of the icon receive any financial compensation for displaying the icon?

Yes, I need to see evidence, not just anecdotal claims. I want to see the child's medical records before and after the alleged healing.

[Adam]

The new movie Miracles from Heaven seems to document a case in Texas of an undeniable miracle three years ago. All parties involved are still alive (and except for one, not too young to be very credible).

[Gary]

Gary's already on record as stating:


In other words, since he's ignoring every claim individually, there can be no stacking of claims such that the probability of them happening will grow.

Just because millions of people once believed that praying to a rain god would produce rain, and often when they prayed it would rain shortly thereafter, within a few days, should we then "stack" all the cases of attributing rain to praying to rain gods together in order to make the existence of rain gods more probable??

[Adrift]

And you are an uninformed ignoramus. I'll go back to ignoring you.

Yeah, let's see how long it lasts this time. I have little faith in your self-control.

[Gary]

Let's imagine a community of 10,000 Christians somewhere in Asia. This group of Christians, like most people in their culture, are big believers in the supernatural and miracles. Every time someone in the Christian community is sick, they pray for healing. Every time that some one in the community dies, they pray that if it is God's will, that God raise the person from the dead.

However, hundreds of Christians in the community get sick and some die every year, even though prayers for healing/raising are made for them. However, once in a rare while, someone has an amazing health recovery, and even more rarely, someone "comes back to life" after being thought dead. These people too had been prayed for.

Should we attribute these rare health recoveries and even rarer life recoveries to prayer?

Answer: We can't say because it is also possible that these recoveries were random chance.

If Christians in the community ALWAYS recovered from illness (and death) whenever a prayer was said for them, then we could assume that the likely cause of the recovery was the power of prayer. But since the recoveries are so rare and so random, it is very possible that they are nothing more than coincidence. If Christians never prayed for someone to be raised from the dead, but in one instance they did, and a recovery occurred, this would be stronger evidence for the power of prayer, but is this the case?

Bottom line: If every time someone is sick or someone dies, prayers for healing/recovery are always made, rare recoveries cannot be attributed automatically to prayer, as they may just be random health recoveries/recoveries from comas that would have occurred without prayer.

[One Bad Pig]

Does the owner of the icon receive any financial compensation for displaying the icon?

He receives donations. It costs money to travel, and he had to build a chapel for it outside his home because displaying it there became too disruptive and there wasn't enough room for everyone who wanted to see it. I'm not sure I'd want one of my icons to start streaming myrrh. While wonderful, it would turn my life upside down.

[Gary]

The new movie Miracles from Heaven seems to document a case in Texas of an undeniable miracle three years ago. All parties involved are still alive (and except for one, not too young to be very credible).

I'll check the reviews.

[Gary]

He receives donations. It costs money to travel, and he had to build a chapel for it outside his home because displaying it there became too disruptive and there wasn't enough room for everyone who wanted to see it. I'm not sure I'd want one of my icons to start streaming myrrh. While wonderful, it would turn my life upside down.

But if you are a very devout believer, it could become the focal point of your life; give your life great purpose; therefore this could be a strong motivator; also, if one is poor or not well off, the additional income could be a big help.

Scientists have tested some "crying icons" and found that the owner regularly places oil below the eyes of the image. When the church warms up, the oil begins to run and voila: tears! I'm not saying this is what is going on with your icon, but I would want it tested by independent scientists before believing the tears are real tears.

[One Bad Pig]

But if you are a very devout believer, it could become the focal point of your life; give your life great purpose; therefore this could be a strong motivator; also, if one is poor or not well off, the additional income could be a big help.

Scientists have tested some "crying icons" and found that the owner regularly places oil below the eyes of the image. When the church warms up, the oil begins to run and voila: tears! I'm not saying this is what is going on with your icon, but I would want it tested by independent scientists before believing the tears are real tears.

That would have to be a pretty cold starting temperature for that trick to work. Also, the streaming icons I've seen exude myrrh from the entire surface of the icon, front and back (and in much more abundant quantity). The streaming icon I'm most familiar with was doubted by the owner for the first couple days; he wiped it down just in case it was just residual moisture from when another streaming icon was touched to it. On feast days, it streams so heavily that myrrh is running off the icon in sheets. And it has been tested for fraudulence; the owner had no desire to perpetrate a fraud.

[Gary]

That would have to be a pretty cold starting temperature for that trick to work. Also, the streaming icons I've seen exude myrrh from the entire surface of the icon, front and back (and in much more abundant quantity). The streaming icon I'm most familiar with was doubted by the owner for the first couple days; he wiped it down just in case it was just residual moisture from when another streaming icon was touched to it. On feast days, it streams so heavily that myrrh is running off the icon in sheets. And it has been tested for fraudulence; the owner had no desire to perpetrate a fraud.

"the owner had no desire to perpetrate a fraud"

You are making an assumption, friend.

My wife's family in Central America knows a guy who goes around to Catholic Churches in the United States raising money for poor children in Central America. He takes pictures and videos of the poor children. He takes videos of him giving the poor children clothes and food. Problem is: It's a scam. The man pockets all the money he raises. He never gives anything to poor children. The videos are staged. However, all the churches in the US think this man is a saint!

There are a lot of con artists in the world.