Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Gary]

Sorry dude. Never said other gods are real. I just said that there are other spiritual powers at work in the world. That's well in line with Biblical monotheism.

Oh it is so amusing noticing that I've hit a nerve. All of a sudden, Gary is concerned about a supposed heresy.

"Other spiritual powers"? Please specify.

If you mean Satan and his demons, please show me a passage where Satan has the power to heal disease and raise the dead? The only powers that the God of the Bible has granted to Satan is to be the ruler of this world; to tempt and deceive mankind; and to possess their bodies. I would like to see a Bible verse where it says Satan has healing powers and life-giving powers.

[Cerebrum123]

"Other spiritual powers"? Please specify.

If you mean Satan and his demons, please show me a passage where Satan has the power to heal disease and raise the dead? The only powers that the God of the Bible has granted to Satan is to be the ruler of this world; to tempt and deceive mankind; and to possess their bodies. I would like to see a Bible verse where it says Satan has healing powers and life-giving powers.

It doesn't specify what the "signs" are, but the Bible is clear that they are capable of being performed by false prophets.

Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

A couple things to note, these are incredibly miraculous to the point that they could deceive the elect if and only if

[Apologiaphoenix]

Cerebrum has posted all that I would.

Again, the problem is if you have a miracle outside the Christian tradition, you have to explain it as do I. The difference is you have to discount all of them. I can just look and say other angels can act in the spiritual world within the constraints set by God. That doesn't damage Christian theism.

Of course, if you want to make a charge of my being unorthodox, feel free to make a case to the rest of the moderating team. I'm sure they'll be amused to hear it.

[Adrift]

It doesn't specify what the "signs" are, but the Bible is clear that they are capable of being performed by false prophets.

Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

A couple things to note, these are incredibly miraculous to the point that they could deceive the elect if and only if

Also 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10.

[Gary]

[Apologiaphoenix]

Okay. Feel free to show this happening in another religion with medical confirmation. Strange that you say there isn't any for Christian healings but then all of a sudden, you say that there is for other religions.

[Gary]

Okay. Feel free to show this happening in another religion with medical confirmation. Strange that you say there isn't any for Christian healings but then all of a sudden, you say that there is for other religions.

Let me clarify: with ALLEGED medical confirmation...

Nick: Does Satan have power over Death? Can Satan raise the dead?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Let me clarify: with ALLEGED medical confirmation...

Okay. Show it.

[Gary]

Okay. Show it.

Answer my question first, please: Does Satan have power over Death? Can Satan raise the dead?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Answer my question first, please: Does Satan have power over Death? Can Satan raise the dead?

I'm not convinced he can, but hey, let's see your evidence.

[Gary]

I'm not convinced he can, but hey, let's see your evidence.

Does the Bible state a position on whether or not Satan has the power over Death and can raise the dead?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Does the Bible state a position on whether or not Satan has the power over Death and can raise the dead?

Nowhere that I know of. Demonology doesn't rank high as a serious area of study in the Bible. The medievals had a lot more to say about it.

[psstein]

I'm happy to hear you say that. The Gospels were not written as historical documents but as theological documents. Therefore some or all of the stories included in these documents may be theological fiction...such as the reanimation/resurrection of a dead body.

The gospels are biographies, but they're also theologized history or historicized theology. Some of the stories are fictitious (e.g. the flight to Egypt, which is a typological issue, not historical). Some of them are much more likely to be true.

[psstein]

It's hard enough to diagnose a patient sitting across from you that you can ask questions to and receive answers from. Even harder to do it based on bits and pieces.

But the real weakness of Ludemann's position is that it assumes a modern introspective conscience on an ancient Middle Eastern person. Paul would not have been wrestling with guilt. Shame would be a bigger problem and he would not have shame because the people who had the honor he would have been wanting were all applauding what he was doing.

Ancients did not experience guilt like that. There was of course guilt in the case of "Someone is guilty of a crime and did something wrong", but guilt as an internal feeling is not known in those cultures. It's not known then or now.

Yes, that's a very good point. I think Paul's psychology would be far better understood as "shame" as opposed to "guilt."

More importantly, though, Ludemann's biggest failure is that he's attempting to do psychiatric biography, which is unbelievably difficult for people we have comprehensive sources for.

[Gary]

The gospels are biographies, but they're also theologized history or historicized theology. Some of the stories are fictitious (e.g. the flight to Egypt, which is a typological issue, not historical). Some of them are much more likely to be true.

See, I have a hard time understanding your thinking: If you know that the gospel authors had a habit of making up numerous historical details for theological purposes, why then wouldn't you see that a fantastical claim of a dead man exiting his tomb with a superhero, immortal body isn't also a theological construct, and not literal?? Is it just because a couple other authors, some of whom plagiarized the original, also mention this fantastical tale?