Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Gary]

Nope. If you never did ANYTHING wrong to anyone else, then you would go to Heaven. The bad news is that none of us are morally perfect. We have all behaved in a shameful manner and do not deserve honor.

I could care less about your god giving me honor. I just don't want him imposing any punishment on me. I have done nothing that deserves an eternal "time out".

[One Bad Pig]

"slight" of hand...

Nope.

You have constructed a marvelous Strawman.

Denial - it's not just a river in Egypt.

[Christianbookworm]

I could care less about your god giving me honor. I just don't want him imposing any punishment on me. I have done nothing that deserves an eternal "time out".

If so, you have nothing to worry about. I disagree with the black and white notion that there are no levels of rewards and punishments.

[Gary]

If so, you have nothing to worry about. I disagree with the black and white notion that there are no levels of rewards and punishments.

Then you are a universalist. Great! I have no issue with your belief system then.

Peace and happiness to you!

[Christianbookworm]

Then you are a universalist. Great! I have no issue with your belief system then.

Peace and happiness to you!

Nope! A universalist thinks that everyone is saved, including horrible evil people. I don't know you, so I don't know if you are as good as you think you are or not. If you have ever been a jerk, you will be punished exactly how much you deserve. No more, no less. So, you can earn your way to limbo.If limbo were an actual thing. Heaven(New Jerusalem) is for those who accepted the offer of salvation and get a higher standard of living as a result. The people who spend a lifetime of preforming unthinkable evil acts to their fellow humans get what they deserve in retribution for what they did to others. I'd hate to be in their shoes. It would be better to mess with a bear cub, than to harm a child. Though, God likely would not care for animal abuse either.

[Gary]

Nope! A universalist thinks that everyone is saved, including horrible evil people. I don't know you, so I don't know if you are as good as you think you are or not. If you have ever been a jerk, you will be punished exactly how much you deserve. No more, no less. So, you can earn your way to limbo.If limbo were an actual thing. Heaven(New Jerusalem) is for those who accepted the offer of salvation and get a higher standard of living as a result. The people who spend a lifetime of preforming unthinkable evil acts to their fellow humans get what they deserve in retribution for what they did to others. I'd hate to be in their shoes. It would be better to mess with a bear cub, than to harm a child. Though, God likely would not care for animal abuse either.

I don't care what your god does to murderers, rapists, and child abusers, just tell him to mind his own business regarding the rest of us.

[Christianbookworm]

I don't care what your god does to murderers, rapists, and child abusers, just tell him to mind his own business regarding the rest of us.

Sure. It's much more fun in the New Jerusalem! But He certainly won't force you to live there. Just don't ever do anything wrong.

[RumTumTugger]

I could care less about your god giving me honor. I just don't want him imposing any punishment on me. I have done nothing that deserves an eternal "time out".

have you ever lied, have you ever taken something that didn't belong to you have you ever cheated on a examine tell me Gary have you lead a complety moral and good life completely no wrong doing at all.

[Christianbookworm]

have you ever lied, have you ever taken something that didn't belong to you have you ever cheated on a examine tell me Gary have never in your life done something wrong? hmm?

Right! No one is truly as good as they think they are. If they REALLY are as good as they think they are, then they will have a decent afterlife. It's like a test. You could pass or you could fail. You could also get a range of scores within the pass and fail categories. If you accept Jesus, you automatically pass, but you could still earn an A, B, C, or D. If you don't, you could still earn a high F. So, if Alice earned the equivalent of a 30 through works and was saved through Jesus, she might get a high C. Because none of us have done well enough to pass by our own merits, we need Jesus to pass.

[Gary]

Sure. It's much more fun in the New Jerusalem! But He certainly won't force you to live there. Just don't ever do anything wrong.

"Just don't ever do anything wrong.

And there's the rub: If by "wrong" you are saying that if I have ever lied, said an unkind word, or lost my temper I will be punished by your god, then you are essentially saying that every human being who has ever lived is going to be punished by your god unless they get on their knees and grovel to him.

Sick belief system.

You have just admitted that you are a religious fundamentalist.

[Gary]

have you ever lied, have you ever taken something that didn't belong to you have you ever cheated on a examine tell me Gary have you lead a complety moral and good life completely no wrong doing at all.

Of course I have lied at least once. Of course I have lost my temper. Of course I have cursed at someone who cut me off in traffic.

But none of that deserves an eternal "time out".

If you want to believe that your god has the right to do that to me simply because he "made" me, go ahead. But at least have the courage to call him what he is: a sick, sadistic, monster. No good person would put another person in a dark room to sit there in "time out" for perpetuity. The punishment does not fit the crime. It is unjust and immoral.

[Gary]

Right! No one is truly as good as they think they are. If they REALLY are as good as they think they are, then they will have a decent afterlife. It's like a test. You could pass or you could fail. You could also get a range of scores within the pass and fail categories. If you accept Jesus, you automatically pass, but you could still earn an A, B, C, or D. If you don't, you could still earn a high F. So, if Alice earned the equivalent of a 30 through works and was saved through Jesus, she might get a high C. Because none of us have done well enough to pass by our own merits, we need Jesus to pass.

Do you have a Bible passage that indicates that all non-believers will be punished by such a sliding scale in the afterlife or is this something you have invented on your own?

[RumTumTugger]

Of course I have lied at least once. Of course I have lost my temper. Of course I have cursed at someone who cut me off in traffic.

But none of that deserves an eternal "time out".

If you want to believe that your god has the right to do that to me simply because he "made" me, go ahead. But at least have the courage to call him what he is: a sick, sadistic, monster. No good person would put another person in a dark room to sit there in "time out" for perpetuity. The punishment does not fit the crime. It is unjust and immoral.

All have sinned and deserve punishment Gary All it isn't a bell curve here is is pass or fail and needing a 100 percent on your test or else God would not be a Just or Righteous God. But God in his grace has been able to temper his Justice with his Mercy you are not going to be punished because you didn't accept Jesus you going to be punished because you are a sinner and justice demands it. Jesus is the way not go to where you deserve to Go that is where mercy comes in.

Gary the TRUE God(not the false one you have made up in your mind) is a Righteous Just, merciful and loving God. who wants a loving relationship with his creation so much so that he risked that relationship let you have the choice to let him be the one to hold on to the RIGHT relationship with him you were created for. If you choose to say no I want it my way then he will let you have it but don't blame him if you don't like where YOUR way leads that the consequence. Good choices bring Good consequences; Bad choices bring Bad consequences. It is not the fault of anyone else especially not God's if you don't like the consequence of the choice you make.

Gary when that day comes no matter what choice you have made. You will admit God is God and rightfully dealing with you.

I pray you make the right choice before it is to late.

[Jedidiah]

What are you talking about? Your belief is that he orders you to love him or he gives you a "time out" in Hell for all eternity. That is an ultimatum. That is blackmail. That is abuse. That is evil.

You know if you sincerely want to rescue us from this horrible cult it would behoove you to argue against what we believe rather than the parody of it you are railing against.

[Jedidiah]

snip . . .

You have constructed a marvelous Strawman.

well you are very familiar with strawmen.