Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Gary]

Here's the thing, I don't consider them to very extraordinary claims. unusual yes. rare yes. very extraordinary no.

And you know my reasons why.

Yes, I know, and that is why we look at the evidence so very differently. I can't prove that you are wrong, but I don't think you can prove that I am wrong. Skeptics and believers are going to continue to speak past one another until we can agree on the probability of miracles. We skeptics consider miracles to be either impossible or highly improbable; much more improbable than any possible natural explanation; while believers see miracles as highly probable.

Based on our very different perspectives on the probability of miracles, we will never agree on whether or not a natural explanation is more probable for the early Christian Resurrection belief than a miracle bodily resurrection.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, I know, and that is why we look at the evidence so very differently. I can't prove that you are wrong, but I don't think you can prove that I am wrong. Skeptics and believers are going to continue to speak past one another until we can agree on the probability of miracles. We skeptics consider miracles to be either impossible or highly improbable; much more improbable than any possible natural explanation; while believers see miracles as highly probable.

Based on our very different perspectives on the probability of miracles, we will never agree on whether or not a natural explanation is more probable for the early Christian Resurrection belief than a miracle bodily resurrection.

I have actually witnessed miracles. The old farmer, for example, who brought his lethargic and despondent daughter to us for prayer wasn't concerned about "proof" so much as he was that his little daughter got up and played after 6 months of near-coma condition. Sorry, but recording this healing on video was the last thing on our minds.

[Gary]

I have actually witnessed miracles. The old farmer, for example, who brought his lethargic and despondent daughter to us for prayer wasn't concerned about "proof" so much as he was that his little daughter got up and played after 6 months of near-coma condition. Sorry, but recording this healing on video was the last thing on our minds.

Well, that truly sounds remarkable. It truly sounds like a miracle. But, just as in the case of the person claiming an alien abduction, I would need to see more evidence than just take someone's sincere word.

What is odd to me is: Why doesn't Jesus ever perform a miracle right in front of a nationally televised panel of skeptical experts, that cannot be explained by any natural means, to show his divinity? He could reassemble a dismembered corpse and give it life right in front of the skeptics. Or he could reattach a severed leg without any human assistance right on TV. But he never does that, does he?

Jesus always seems to perform his truly amazing miracles (raising the dead) or healing the lame and blind out of view of television cameras. Out of view of ubiquitous cellphone cameras. Usually in a remote area of a Third World country. Why is that?

Why the secrecy, Jesus?

You were very liberal with your miracles in front of vast crowds in major cities 2,000 years ago. So why the secrecy now?

Hmm. It makes you wonder doesn't it, folks?

[Adam]

If you're the preacher you say you were, you already know the answer.
Mark 6:1-6.
Which raises the stakes on your own issue,
"Is unbelief so evil that God scorns to cater to them for demanding a sign?"

[One Bad Pig]

If you're the preacher you say you were, you already know the answer.
Mark 6:1-6.
Which raises the stakes on your own issue,
"Is unbelief so evil that God scorns to cater to them for demanding a sign?"

I think you're confusing Gary with John Loftus.

[Adrift]

If you're the preacher you say you were, you already know the answer.

Did I miss something? When did he say that?

[Gary]

If you're the preacher you say you were, you already know the answer.
Mark 6:1-6.
Which raises the stakes on your own issue,
"Is unbelief so evil that God scorns to cater to them for demanding a sign?"

Jesus did sign, after sign, after sign, after sign in the Gospels. He did signs in practically every city, village, and hamlet he entered. Casting demons into large herds of pigs who drown themselves, healing leprosy, healing the blind, healing the lame, and raising the dead...all in front of huge crowds. But nope. No signs today. Jesus wants people today to believe in him because of alleged miracles performed in some grass hut in the jungles of the Third World.

Silly.

Isn't it obvious, folks? The reason Jesus doesn't perform miracles in front of a panel of skeptical experts, on national TV, or at least in front of ONE cellphone camera, is because Jesus is dead. And most likely, the miracles described in the Gospels never happened. The are theological embellishments to further the Good News of eternal salvation by faith in Jesus the Christ.

In other words: propaganda.

[Cow Poke]

Well, that truly sounds remarkable. It truly sounds like a miracle. But, just as in the case of the person claiming an alien abduction, I would need to see more evidence than just take someone's sincere word.

The obvious purpose of this miracle was to heal the little girl, not to convince a skeptic. In your odd reference to an alien abduction - that's not nearly the same thing. Multiple people witnessed this healing, whereas in an alien abduction, you generally only have that person's say so.

What is odd to me is: Why doesn't Jesus ever perform a miracle right in front of a nationally televised panel of skeptical experts, that cannot be explained by any natural means, to show his divinity? He could reassemble a dismembered corpse and give it life right in front of the skeptics. Or he could reattach a severed leg without any human assistance right on TV. But he never does that, does he?

Well, according to Jesus, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

Jesus always seems to perform his truly amazing miracles (raising the dead) or healing the lame and blind out of view of television cameras. Out of view of ubiquitous cellphone cameras. Usually in a remote area of a Third World country. Why is that?

Quite honestly, in my estimation, the reason it happens in third world countries is because they haven't been taught that miracles don't happen anymore.

Why the secrecy, Jesus?

Because He came to seek and to save them which were lost, not do flashy stuff to entertain skeptics.

You were very liberal with your miracles in front of vast crowds in major cities 2,000 years ago. So why the secrecy now?

Hmm. It makes you wonder doesn't it, folks?

According to John, who only included 7 of the signs (or miracles), it was to establish that He was Messiah. And Matthew tells us "...He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. In the example I shared where young Vivian was healed, the Pastor had asked that any of the deacons who did NOT have faith that she would be healed abstain. Some did.

[Gary]

The obvious purpose of this miracle was to heal the little girl, not to convince a skeptic. In your odd reference to an alien abduction - that's not nearly the same thing. Multiple people witnessed this healing, whereas in an alien abduction, you generally only have that person's say so.



Well, according to Jesus, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."



Quite honestly, in my estimation, the reason it happens in third world countries is because they haven't been taught that miracles don't happen anymore.



Because He came to seek and to save them which were lost, not do flashy stuff to entertain skeptics.



According to John, who only included 7 of the signs (or miracles), it was to establish that He was Messiah. And Matthew tells us "...He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. In the example I shared where young Vivian was healed, the Pastor had asked that any of the deacons who did NOT have faith that she would be healed abstain. Some did.

Again, your story certainly sounds miraculous. I do not doubt the facts you are asserting: that the little girl immediately recovered. What I question is whether or not this recovery was due to the powers of an invisible Being in the hospital room. I would want more evidence. I know that seems overly demanding and skeptical to you but I would demand more evidence for any extra-ordinary claim. To me claiming that an invisible Being has the power to heal comatose children is just as improbable as someone being abducted by space aliens. In your worldview that is ridiculous, but in my world view and that of many other people in the western world, that is how we believe.

It is certainly possible that the reason why the resurrected Jesus does not perform indisputable miracles in front of TV cameras or cellphone cameras is because he wants people to believe by faith, but could you admit that it is possible that the reason no indisputable miracles are performed in front of video recorders is because miracles aren't real; they are misperceptions of reality?

And if Jesus wants people to believe by faith, why do so many Christians like Nick Peters and Craig Keener go to such lengths to use evidence to prove the veracity of the Christian Faith???

To me, the excuses for why Jesus won't perform indisputable miracles today is no different than when a child claimes to have an all-powerful invisible friend. So you ask the child,

"How do you know that your friend is there?"

Child: "He talks to me and performs miracles."

"Would you ask your friend to speak to me or perform a miracle for me?"

Pause.

Child: "My friend says that you don't really believe so he isn't going to speak to you or perform a miracle for you."

"But I would believe in him if he would speak to me or perform a miracle."

Child: "He wants you to believe first."

"Ok. I believe."

Pause.

Child: "My friend says you are only pretending to believe."


And on and on and on it goes. Bottom line: You can't prove that the invisible friend is really there or not because the child has created a defense mechanism to prevent you from disproving his friend's existence. I believe that this is what Christians have done to protect their belief in their imaginary friend, Jesus the Christ.

Note: Both the child and the Christian truly and sincerely believe that their invisible friend is real and is present with them. They are not trying to be deceptive. They are simply trying to protect their belief from outside attacks, and because their belief is so central to their psychological well-being, any excuse will be created to defend it.

[psstein]

There are no nonbiased, expert medical panels that have confirmed miracles, Bisto.

You clearly don't know much about how the Catholic Church investigates miracle claims.

[psstein]

Isn't it obvious, folks? The reason Jesus doesn't perform miracles in front of a panel of skeptical experts, on national TV, or at least in front of ONE cellphone camera, is because Jesus is dead. And most likely, the miracles described in the Gospels never happened. The are theological embellishments to further the Good News of eternal salvation by faith in Jesus the Christ.

Somebody needs to read Maurice Casey's Jesus of Nazareth. Casey, who has since died, was an agnostic. He stated that he believed some of the miracle claims to be genuine, though naturalistically explainable.

[Gary]

You clearly don't know much about how the Catholic Church investigates miracle claims.

1. The miracle claim has to be a condition that has been treated by appropriate medical treatment and failed.
2. The proposed saint must have then prayed for healing for the patient.
3. At some point after the prayer, the condition is confirmed by a panel of experts to be resolved.

Notice this panel does not confirm if a "miracle" took place. The expert panel also does not claim that there is no other possible explanation for the healing other than a divine miracle.

Failed treatment with standard medical care---->prayer made by saint-to-be---->condition resolved at some point after the prayer.

That's it.

Very important point.

[Gary]

Somebody needs to read Maurice Casey's Jesus of Nazareth. Casey, who has since died, was an agnostic. He stated that he believed some of the miracle claims to be genuine, though naturalistically explainable.

Yes. Another book to read...

Let's just end this right now: Call up Jesus and ask him to revive and put back together a victim of one of the current wars on earth who has been blown to pieces by a bomb. Do it live on CNN with a group of skeptics, including medical professionals present. Bring out the body parts. Say a prayer to Jesus. Watch the body parts fly together; watch the recomposed body sit up, and then watch the recomposed body walk, talk, and eat broiled fish.

You won't have to ask me or any other skeptic to read any more of your &%#* books.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes. Another book to read...

Let's just end this right now: Call up Jesus and ask him to revive and put back together a victim of one of the current wars on earth who has been blown to pieces by a bomb. Do it live on CNN with a group of skeptics, including medical professionals present. Bring out the body parts. Say a prayer to Jesus. Watch the body parts fly together; watch the recomposed body sit up, and then watch the recomposed body walk, talk, and eat broiled fish.

You won't have to ask me or any other skeptic to read any more of your &%#* books.

Why should we take you seriously if you pooh-pooh even reading agnostic scholarship? God's not a puppet to dance to your fantastical whims, Gary.

[Cow Poke]

Again, your story certainly sounds miraculous. I do not doubt the facts you are asserting: that the little girl immediately recovered. What I question is whether or not this recovery was due to the powers of an invisible Being in the hospital room.

It wasn't a hospital room. It was the Pastor's office, and they laid the girl down on his desk for us to pray for her.

I would want more evidence.

Well, once again, it wasn't intended for your benefit, and she is alive and well and healthy today, and her Daddy was still praising God til he passed away just a few years ago.

I know that seems overly demanding and skeptical to you....

Nope, it just sounds like a typical atheist.