Does Jesus's Prayer Show Christianity Is False?

[Adrift]

Thank you for the clarification, but that is not what you said.

Of course it is.

[Adrift]

Leonhard already stated that. But what difference does it make? Catholics only represent 25% of the US population. What's your point?

There are 178 million Christians in the US. 16 million of those are members of the Southern Baptist convention. While they represent a large number of Christians, the picture is not nearly as black and white as you keep painting it. I know that in your world things have to be either/or, but that's not how the real world operates.

[Gary]

It seems you've been asked that a couple of times now.







Go on ahead.

Agreed upon evidence:

1. Public execution.
2. Public burial.
3. Sealed tomb.
4. Guards at the tomb for most of the period of time in question.
5. Empty tomb, three days and two nights later, with stone rolled away. (No known witnesses to the body leaving the tomb, however)
6. Post-death sightings of the resurrected body, sometimes by hundreds of people at once.
7. Dramatically changed behavior of disciples.
8. Very shameful, very strange new belief system in an Honor-Shame society.
9. A belief never heard of in Judaism, yet believed by several thousand devout Jews.
10. Rapid spread of Christianity.
11. Willingness of thousands of Christians to be persecuted, tortured, and painfully executed for their beliefs.
12. The apostles of Jesus believed in the bodily resurrection and preached it.

Note that the majority of experts have not agreed to all the above, but I will agree to use them because most Christians believe they are historical facts, and I can still show that there are other more natural explanations for all this evidence.

One possible explanation for all the above facts:

Jesus is crucified and buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb by Joseph and Nicodemus. A stone is rolled in front of the tomb. It is late Friday afternoon. The Jews go to Pilate and ask for guards to be placed at the tomb because they fear that the disciples will steal the body and try to claim that Jesus had been resurrected. Pilate agrees and sends soldiers to the tomb. The soldiers seal the tomb and stand guard round-the-clock for the next few days until Sunday morning.

Very early Sunday morning, some of the female followers of Jesus make a trip to the tomb. It is dawn and there is only a hint of light. As they enter the Garden, they can't yet see Jesus' tomb and the guards, but in the distance they see a man. It is barely light, so it is hard to see the man clearly, but it looks like Jesus! The man turns to look at them, smiles, and then walks away and is no longer visible. It was Jesus! It looked like Jesus' face and he smiled at us! The women run back into town telling people along the way that Jesus has been raised from the dead. News of this "miracle" gets back to the Roman soldiers at the tomb. The soldiers break the seal, move away the stone, and look inside. The tomb is empty! In fear for their lives for having failed to guard the body, they flee.

Shortly thereafter, Peter and John come to the tomb and find..the story is true! The stone is rolled back and the tomb is empty. Jesus is risen! They run and tell the other disciples who were still in hiding for fear that they too would be executed. But now they are emboldened! Jesus had said that they would rule with him in the new kingdom! They would sit on thrones! And now Jesus was back, ready to establish that Kingdom. Their fear dissolved, and they boldly preached the coming Kingdom.

Over the next days, weeks, and months Christians began having visions of Jesus and false sightings of Jesus, similar to the false sighting of the women in the garden (men who looked like Jesus, but were not). And within five years, a Creed was formed which included the names of many of the prominent members of the Church as eyewitnesses and even a claim that five hundred at once had seen Jesus.

The Christian message claimed that even the poorest of people would attain riches in heaven after death, and, anyone who became a Christian was allowed to participate in the sharing of food and goods, as the earliest Christians practiced a form of communal living. With a social welfare system in this life and a promise of riches in the next, the new religion was very attractive to the lower classes of the Roman empire, and it spread very rapidly, even in the face of sometimes horrific persecution.

So why was the tomb empty?

Answer: During the brief period of time between Josephus and Nicodemus putting the body in the tomb and the soldiers arriving and sealing the tomb, SOMEONE came and took the body...for reasons we will never know.

[JimL]

Then why did St. Paul write that it preaching Christ crucified, was an offense to others. Why did the Church Fathers insist that the Romans thought this belief to be ridiculous (namely that they worshipped a God that had been crucified)? Why did all sorts of other syncretic sects dump the crucifixion the first chance they got, and that even today its quite a stumbling block for Muslims and others.

There was a rationalization made for that, i.e. that the crucifixion was Gods own plan. Of course it would be ridiculous to believe that man could overpower and murder a god against his will, what kind of god could that be? But the crucifixion being gods own plan can't then be seen as being offensive as well.

Its not the kind of detail you invent when you want to make an awesome God for people to believe in.

They didn't necessarily make up the crucifixion, as I said, crucifixions happened all the time, the awesomeness was in the claimed resurrection. Thats the kind of detail you invent when you want to make an awesome god for people to believe in.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I have no problem with anything Leon has said really. Also glad he was here for my regular Sunday break from debating.

As to what Jim just said, yeah. Crucifixion can be seen as that offensive. Talking about crucifixion would be akin to talking about pedophilia or something of that sort today. You just didn't do it. Jesus would be automatically disqualified from the start as any sort of deity since He let Himself get crucified.

If you want resurrection, you just need to show a painful death. You do not need to show a shameful death.

[Gary]

Ok. So I have shown above one possible explanation which includes all the agreed upon evidence related to Jesus death, burial, and the subsequent belief that he was resurrected, and as of yet, no one has disputed this possible explanation of the facts. Here is another:


Jesus is crucified and buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb by Joseph and Nicodemus. A stone is rolled in front of the tomb. It is late Friday afternoon. The Jews go to Pilate and ask for guards to be placed at the tomb because they fear that the disciples will steal the body and try to claim that Jesus had been resurrected. Pilate agrees and sends soldiers to the tomb. The soldiers seal the tomb and stand guard round-the-clock for the next few days until Sunday morning.

Very early Sunday morning, some of the female followers of Jesus make a trip to the tomb. It is dawn and there is only a hint of light. As they enter the Garden, they can't yet see Jesus' tomb and the guards, but in the distance they see a man. It is barely light, so it is hard to see the man clearly, but it looks like Jesus! The man turns to look at them, smiles, and then walks away and is no longer visible. It was Jesus! It looked like Jesus' face and he smiled at us! The women run back into town telling people along the way that Jesus has been raised from the dead.

However...the women do not know it but on the previous night, Pilate was suddenly struck with this thought: "What have I done?? I have just created a national shrine to a person executed for high treason against Rome! Every trouble making Jew is going to make pilgrimages to the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth! It is only going to foment insurrection. I should have tossed his body in an unmarked hole in the ground. Pilate secretly orders soldiers to go to the tomb in the middle of the night, break the seal, move the stone away, take the body, and toss it into an unmarked hole in the ground far from the Garden.

Back to Sunday morning: The women arrive to the upper room and tell the disciples of seeing the resurrected Jesus. Peter and John run to the tomb and find the stone rolled away and the tomb empty...He is risen!

Over the next days, weeks, and months Christians began having visions of Jesus and false sightings of Jesus, similar to the false sighting of the women in the garden (men who looked like Jesus, but were not). And within five years, a Creed was formed which included the names of many of the prominent members of the Church as eyewitnesses and even a claim that five hundred at once had seen Jesus.

The Christian message claimed that even the poorest of people would attain riches in heaven after death, and, anyone who became a Christian was allowed to participate in the sharing of food and goods, as the earliest Christians practiced a form of communal living. With a social welfare system in this life and a promise of riches in the next, the new religion was very attractive to the lower classes of the Roman empire, and it spread very rapidly, even in the face of sometimes horrific persecution.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Um. No.

Pilate putting a seal on it would have meant it was the seal of Caesar. That would not be undone even by Pilate. Heck. When a king ordered a decree, he himself could not overturn it. Pilate would also not care about a national shrine nor would there be such a national shrine. Jesus's followers were miniscule. Furthermore, the family would have gone looking for the body anyway.

For seeing someone alive again, in Jesus's world if you saw someone in a vision who was thought to be dead, that could only mean one thing. They were dead. Visions would have led them to believe that Jesus had been ascended to Abraham's bosom. They would not lead them to believe that He had risen from the dead. Not only that, how would that entail then the belief that He was included in the divine identity.

The problem with hallucinations is also amplified by the fact that multiple appearances took place and many of these grief appearances. We have no reason to think that the apostles were in any state of mind to be experiencing these and we frankly don't know their state of mind. We also do not have convincing records of group appearances.

Also, this would not explain the conversion of skeptics like James and Paul and it would not explain why high honor people came to believe the Christian message.

This is just a fable told to avoid where the historical evidence really leads.

[Christianbookworm]

Um. No.

Pilate putting a seal on it would have meant it was the seal of Caesar. That would not be undone even by Pilate. Heck. When a king ordered a decree, he himself could not overturn it. Pilate would also not care about a national shrine nor would there be such a national shrine. Jesus's followers were miniscule. Furthermore, the family would have gone looking for the body anyway.

For seeing someone alive again, in Jesus's world if you saw someone in a vision who was thought to be dead, that could only mean one thing. They were dead. Visions would have led them to believe that Jesus had been ascended to Abraham's bosom. They would not lead them to believe that He had risen from the dead. Not only that, how would that entail then the belief that He was included in the divine identity.

The problem with hallucinations is also amplified by the fact that multiple appearances took place and many of these grief appearances. We have no reason to think that the apostles were in any state of mind to be experiencing these and we frankly don't know their state of mind. We also do not have convincing records of group appearances.

Also, this would not explain the conversion of skeptics like James and Paul and it would not explain why high honor people came to believe the Christian message.

This is just a fable told to avoid where the historical evidence really leads.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Donchaknow that everyone living before the Enlightenment was stoopid??? Because they didn't have compooteerz to tell them wat to think!

[Apologiaphoenix]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Donchaknow that everyone living before the Enlightenment was stoopid??? Because they didn't have compooteerz to tell them wat to think!

It has been said that if you ever want to see how strong the resurrection hypothesis is, just read the competitors.

This shows it.

[Christianbookworm]

It has been said that if you ever want to see how strong the resurrection hypothesis is, just read the competitors.

This shows it.

What do you mean? That the other hypotheses are full of more holes than a pasta strainer? My sarcastic statement about people in the past supposedly being stupid?

[Apologiaphoenix]

What do you mean? That the other hypotheses are full of more holes than a pasta strainer? My sarcastic statement about people in the past supposedly being stupid?

Other explanations tend to be ad hoc and add in several factors. Goulder for instance hypothesizes that Paul had a gentile friend when he was growing up that caused him to want to have sympathy for the movement to some extent and a change of heart. No evidence for this. Others try to say Paul lived with a guilt conscience and that caused him to do a 180. No evidence of this and the idea of a guilt conscience is more of a modern Western concept. Paul in his writings shows no indication he had any "guilt" over what he was doing.

[Adrift]

Um. No.

Pilate putting a seal on it would have meant it was the seal of Caesar. That would not be undone even by Pilate. Heck. When a king ordered a decree, he himself could not overturn it. Pilate would also not care about a national shrine nor would there be such a national shrine. Jesus's followers were miniscule. Furthermore, the family would have gone looking for the body anyway.

For seeing someone alive again, in Jesus's world if you saw someone in a vision who was thought to be dead, that could only mean one thing. They were dead. Visions would have led them to believe that Jesus had been ascended to Abraham's bosom. They would not lead them to believe that He had risen from the dead. Not only that, how would that entail then the belief that He was included in the divine identity.

The problem with hallucinations is also amplified by the fact that multiple appearances took place and many of these grief appearances. We have no reason to think that the apostles were in any state of mind to be experiencing these and we frankly don't know their state of mind. We also do not have convincing records of group appearances.

Also, this would not explain the conversion of skeptics like James and Paul and it would not explain why high honor people came to believe the Christian message.

This is just a fable told to avoid where the historical evidence really leads.

Yeah, it's pretty ad hoc. I'm certain Occum would have something to say about Gary's reimaginings. In my opinion, a lot of this does comes down to presuppositions though. If you believe there exists a divinity who has the capability to raise people from the dead, then there really isn't any reason to deny where the evidence leads. The Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide wasn't a Christian, but believed the evidence was insurmountable, and led to the conclusion of a resurrection. A skeptical nontheist or deist is always going to look for naturalistic reasons to explain the miraculous.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Yeah, it's pretty ad hoc. I'm certain Occum would have something to say about Gary's reimaginings. In my opinion, a lot of this does comes down to presuppositions though. If you believe there exists a divinity who has the capability to raise people from the dead, then there really isn't any reason to deny where the evidence leads. The Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide wasn't a Christian, but believed the evidence was insurmountable, and led to the conclusion of a resurrection. A skeptical nontheist or deist is always going to look for naturalistic reasons to explain the miraculous.

Agreed. I am not a presuppositionalist, but there is a role that presuppositions do play.

[Gary]

Um. No.

Pilate putting a seal on it would have meant it was the seal of Caesar. That would not be undone even by Pilate. Heck. When a king ordered a decree, he himself could not overturn it. Pilate would also not care about a national shrine nor would there be such a national shrine. Jesus's followers were miniscule. Furthermore, the family would have gone looking for the body anyway.

For seeing someone alive again, in Jesus's world if you saw someone in a vision who was thought to be dead, that could only mean one thing. They were dead. Visions would have led them to believe that Jesus had been ascended to Abraham's bosom. They would not lead them to believe that He had risen from the dead. Not only that, how would that entail then the belief that He was included in the divine identity.

The problem with hallucinations is also amplified by the fact that multiple appearances took place and many of these grief appearances. We have no reason to think that the apostles were in any state of mind to be experiencing these and we frankly don't know their state of mind. We also do not have convincing records of group appearances.

Also, this would not explain the conversion of skeptics like James and Paul and it would not explain why high honor people came to believe the Christian message.

This is just a fable told to avoid where the historical evidence really leads.

Wrong.

I have included all the historical evidence. What I have not included are alleged events that scholars have NOT agreed are facts. Let's examine your objections:

1. Where in the text does it say that the soldiers placed a seal of Caesar on the tomb? It simply says they sealed it. That may just mean that they sealed the stone to the surrounding rock. Please provide proof that Caesar seal was placed on the tomb.

Even if Pilate had placed Caesar's seal on the tomb, which is more probable: Pilate or the soldiers themselves (as in example 1) did an unheard of broach of Roman protocol and broke the seal...or, a dead man exited his tomb through a solid stone door in a super-hero like body? Only a Christian is going to say that the latter is the more probable explanation. History is full of professional soldiers breaking protocol, but there is only one claim of a resurrection.

2. The rest of your objections can be summed up thus: "No first century Jew would ever believe or do such and such..." or, "No Roman would ever believe or do such and such..."

Again which is more probable: An exception to a generalization takes place, or, a dead man walks out of his tomb through a solid stone door in a superhero-like body?

We skeptics do not have to prove that our hypothetical scenarios are THE explanation for the evidence, we only have to show that there are possible, and much more probable, explanations for the evidence.

I have many more possible, more probable, naturalistic explanations for the evidence if you wish to hear them...and there are many... In the face of all these possible alternative, much more probable, explanations, only a fundamentalist Christian will insist that the supernatural (miracle) explanation is the most probable.

[Gary]

It has been said that if you ever want to see how strong the resurrection hypothesis is, just read the competitors.

This shows it.

You are a fundamentalist, my friend, if you believe that the probability of a resurrected super-hero is more probable than the naturalistic alternative explanations I have given. Is there at least ONE reasonable Christian on this site who will admit that the two scenarios I have given are at least possible?? Stein?