Why I Affirm The Virgin Birth

[Adam]

Ehrman does not accept Casey's very early dating of Mark or his views of recoverable Aramaic sources of Mark or Q. His source critical views are essentially those of Streeter. He will occasionally offer an argument for Mark being written a little before 70 CE but he's perhaps becoming more accepting of a post 70 CE dating of Mark.

So from this I judge that Ehrman chickened out when his non-Establishment position on early sources was questioned. Just more proof how little you can trust Ehrman. Either he was right in what he was quoted in the interview (with Huffington, I thought--when his book "Did Jesus Exist" came out) or he recanted without confessing he had erred. I never saw any retraction of the comment, and I eagerly supported his "blunder" back in the now-defunct FreeThoughtandRationalismDiscussionBoard. He was right to say it, but I guess had only taken Casey's word for it, didn't want to admit he had believed Casey, slid away silently....

[Adrift]

Not being silly, not even with taking the crash as God's message to keep off Ehrman's pay-blog.
Maybe they switched from Chrome immediately because I wasn't the only one for whom Google Chrome downed computers. It did happen--maybe my particular HP computer may have contributed to the crash, but Ehrman's site-entry attempt did me in--even before I payed.

I'm a Software Analyst, and have been working in computer repair, and software testing for over a decade now. I'm telling you, it's extremely unlikely (and in my professional opinion, impossible) for Chrome to have trashed your computer in the manner you're suggesting. Worse case scenario, all you needed to do was uninstall it. I've been using Chrome and Firefox since their inception. At no point have they ever released a version of either browser that would render a person's PC so useless that you'd need to throw it in the trash and get a new one.

People who don't understand computers very well often think that the last thing they installed on them is the thing that ruined them, but that isn't always the case. Its possible that the breaking of your PC just so happened to coincide with installing Chrome. Its possible that you mistakenly downloaded some sort of malicious virus or malware that you thought was Chrome, but wasn't. It's possible that you installed the legit Chrome, but added certain extensions that slowed your PC down. Its even possible that your computer was so extremely old that Chrome was a memory hog on it, but again, simply uninstalling the program would have alleviated any issues.

All that said, Ehrman's blog has never required the installation of the Chrome browser.

[Adam]

OK, you're so smart, I just prepared a long post and hit a wrong key and it disappeared. Sometimes when this happens I can play with the back- and forward-Tab and recover it, this time I couldn't. So I guess I'll break up my post in several smaller chunks.
(Probably I hit Ctrl-Quote)

[Adrift]

OK, you're so smart, I just prepared a long post and hit a wrong key and it disappeared. Sometimes when this happens I can play with the back- and forward-Tab and recover it, this time I couldn't. So I guess I'll break up my post in several smaller chunks.
(Probably I hit Ctrl-Quote)

If you're using Firefox (they have it for Chrome too), there's an extension you can use that will help you when this happens. It's called Lazarus: Form Recovery. Basically what it does is save whatever you type into a post every few seconds. A little ankh symbol will appear in the top right hand corner of the post you're writing in, and if you do something like accidentally close your browser, or leave the page, you can opt to restore your last bit of text. Its very handy, and its been a huge time saver for me on a number of occasions.

[Adam]

Yes, you are right. It was more years ago than that (2 or 3, computer is probably 5 years old), when I tried to sign up with Ehrman's pay-blog in 2013?, that I crashed my computer and had to replace it (after downloading material with a virus). So as I was signing in and before I paid, the computer turned itself off to protect itself. (I suppose you'll say computers aren't smart enough to turn themselves off?) So no, Google Chrome did not trash my computer. My computer rejected it as trash.

[robrecht]

So from this I judge that Ehrman chickened out when his non-Establishment position on early sources was questioned. Just more proof how little you can trust Ehrman. Either he was right in what he was quoted in the interview (with Huffington, I thought--when his book "Did Jesus Exist" came out) or he recanted without confessing he had erred. I never saw any retraction of the comment, and I eagerly supported his "blunder" back in the now-defunct FreeThoughtandRationalismDiscussionBoard. He was right to say it, but I guess had only taken Casey's word for it, didn't want to admit he had believed Casey, slid away silently....

Sounds like someone just completely misunderstood Ehrman's position.

[Adam]

Time for me to teach YOU NOW, your computer history class begins. (I'm a credentialed teacher.)
"It was a dark and stormy night"--or at least it seemed so that day after 6 months of no summer while in my junior year in Physics at U. C. Berkeley. I don't remember the Sun ever shining through the fog. (Remember that Berkeley fronts the same Bay as San Francisco, of which Mark Twain related, "The coldest Winter I ever spent was a Summer in San Francisco!") I told my college counselor that rainy November 1962, "I found out that to get a job in Physics I have to get a Master's Degree. I'm going to quit college and become a computer programmer!" Mrs. Lucero recalled how little practical use could be conceived for computers, back in those days when only college personnel found a use for them scheduling school classes, grades, and transcripts. "Dale, don't do that," she said, "There's no future in computers!" So I took her advice and switched to the very practical vocation of--history! The rest is history.

[robrecht]

I'm open to it. I just did an interview with David Capes who has a book on early high Christology coming out. He does think Ehrman thinks Jesus was worshipped early on so it could be, but I'm just not sure that Ehrman places Jesus in the divine identity from the get-go. If I get to this Thanksgiving, I'll be able to go through the book some and check some places to see what he says. Mike owns a copy at his house.

The underlined is certainly not the standard that Hurtado applies. You don't even have to read Ehrman's book to accept what Hurtado himself has said.

[Adam]

Sounds like someone just completely misunderstood Ehrman's position.

Yes, The question is, "WHO misunderstood.
Maybe Ehrman himself? Perhaps he had just been reading Maurice Casey and thought at the time that this was so new and trendy that it was Consensus.

Maybe the Interviewer (from Huffington Post, the Guardian, or whichever it was--some hotshot paper, not just NY Post or something)? Ehrman hemmed and hawed in those first days, but he never pointed the finger at the interviewer or the paper, nor at himself, of course, admitting a mistake. That's how a guy like Ehrman keeps his reputation, never confessing a mistake. I guess no true Christian can retain scholarly respect. It's always got to be the other guy is at fault.
Certainly you weren't implying--No,that I'm supposed to say, "C'est moi!" No, that's the one thing I know it cannot be. This was too critical an issue for me. I was at that time fresh with enthusiasm (you remember, R, you were one of the first I road-tested my great new Thesis, "There are seven written eyewitness accounts of Jesus as sources within the four gospels." So I can use you yourself as a witness of how critical this statement of Ehrman's was, virtually a swearing of allegiance to me before he had even heard of me. I am paranoid enough I even suspected some student of his had read my stuff and passed it on to him.
Well, another possibility. That I was so enamored of my new Thesis that I read it into Ehrman's quotes in the interview. No. But I would acknowledge a possibility that I heard Ehrman's (non)disclaimers about a (mis)quote AS IF he had not repudiated what he had been quoted as saying.
So that leaves you several options. Your Ehrmanism leaves only that last straw to grasp upon, so I'll assume that's going to be your choice. But I say #1 is correct, that Ehrman misstated his own position, but believed (correctly) that there was enough likelihood of it being true (what Casey was saying) that he could stick with S.O.P. and not deny anything, not admit to a mistake (and it wasn't a mistake, he was right in what he had said, even though the most notable proponent has since died).

[Adam]

If you're using Firefox (they have it for Chrome too),

Stop right there. I'm so square I'm still using Windows Seven (and Explorer).
I tried Windows Ten about two weeks in, when I thought it would be safe. I didn't have enough sense to ask my grand-daughter whether it was safe. I found out from her later that Windows Ten is just in Beta Testing.
Sure enough, it failed utterly for me. I wound up spending $299 for a company in India to help me uninstall it. It took over half a day to uninstall. We finally gave up that the uninstall would not work, when suddenly by rebooting Windows 10 was gone!
Why did I have to find on the internet some company in India? Because Windows refuses to list phone numbers in local phone books, and even knowing Microsoft is in Seattle did not help because Directory Assistance for Seattle just gave two numbers to call, that were always busy day and night. Since MS knew that Windows 10 was just in Beta, they owed it to us to roll it out gently, no pressure promoting it to us at ten Million roll-outs a week when they knew they couldn't support even 10% of the problems! Microsoft is....I'm stopping before I get another infraction!
I'll never try Windows 10 again.

[robrecht]

Yes, The question is, "WHO misunderstood.
Maybe Ehrman himself? Perhaps he had just been reading Maurice Casey and thought at the time that this was so new and trendy that it was Consensus.

No, not at all likely. No one with any familiarity with NT exegesis would have considered Casey's view to be the consensus.

Maybe the Interviewer (from Huffington Post, the Guardian, or whichever it was--some hotshot paper, not just NY Post or something)?

Probably someone merely confused or conflated Ehrman and Casey since both had books against Jesus mythicism out at the same time.

Ehrman hemmed and hawed in those first days, but he never pointed the finger at the interviewer or the paper, nor at himself, of course, admitting a mistake. That's how a guy like Ehrman keeps his reputation, never confessing a mistake.

What do you suppose was Ehrman's mistake exactly? Do you have a quote or something?

I guess no true Christian can retain scholarly respect. It's always got to be the other guy is at fault.

Ehrman has been very open about admitting he was wrong and changing his mind. No one gets (scholarly or any other kind of) respect for refusing to admit they are wrong.

Certainly you weren't implying--No,that I'm supposed to say, "C'est moi!"

I am not implying anything. I have no knowledge of this controversy you are referring to.

No, that's the one thing I know it cannot be. This was too critical an issue for me. I was at that time fresh with enthusiasm (you remember, R, you were one of the first I road-tested my great new Thesis, "There are seven written eyewitness accounts of Jesus as sources within the four gospels." So I can use you yourself as a witness of how critical this statement of Ehrman's was, virtually a swearing of allegiance to me before he had even heard of me. I am paranoid enough I even suspected some student of his had read my stuff and passed it on to him.

This is really funny stuff!

Well, another possibility. That I was so enamored of my new Thesis that I read it into Ehrman's quotes in the interview. No. But I would acknowledge a possibility that I heard Ehrman's (non)disclaimers about a (mis)quote AS IF he had not repudiated what he had been quoted as saying.
So that leaves you several options. Your Ehrmanism leaves only that last straw to grasp upon, so I'll assume that's going to be your choice. But I say #1 is correct, that Ehrman misstated his own position, but believed (correctly) that there was enough likelihood of it being true (what Casey was saying) that he could stick with S.O.P. and not deny anything, not admit to a mistake (and it wasn't a mistake, he was right in what he had said, even though the most notable proponent has since died).

Ehrmanism? Make up your mind, are you accusing me of being a fundy Roman Catholic or Ehrmanism?

[Adrift]

Stop right there. I'm so square I'm still using Windows Seven (and Explorer).

You might be a little square for using IE, but Win 7 is perfectly okay in my book. In fact, I recommend most people stick with it if they don't care for 8.1 and up. Now maybe if you were using Win 98...

I wound up spending $299 for a company in India to help me uninstall it.

It never ceases to amaze me how terrified people are of their computers. As if they're magical electric boxes that require a degree in rocket science to fix, maintain, and operate. If you spent $300 bucks and had to send your PC to India in order to uninstall Win 10, hate to say it, but you got ripped off. Your local PC shop probably coulda done it for you for $50 bucks and had it back to you the next day. Assuming you needed a new copy of Windows 7, you'd probably be looking at no more than $150 altogether, and the PC hardware would likely still have been under warranty.

My father is a skilled carpenter. Retired now, but occasionally still does his own framing, flooring, siding, roofing, even a little bit of electrical and plumbing if need be. Computers freak him the heck out, but what he doesn't understand is that if you know how to work on your car or your home, in my opinion, you can work on your own computer. It's not like you have to test wires, or solder transistors anymore. Everything is plug and play. And you don't need to know code language to install or uninstall simple applications or even your operating system unless you're working on something Unix based (which Windows isn't). It's really a psychological thing though. No matter how many times I try to explain how these things work...it's still magic to him.

[Adam]

This is really funny stuff!

I should write for Saturday Night Live?
You sayin' I'm crazy? Who ya callin' Paranoid? I'll paranoid you up the side of the head!

Ehrmanism? Make up your mind, are you accusing me of being a fundy Roman Catholic or Ehrmanism?

C'mon, R. We battled for months at a time back in about 2012, maybe 2011. We're even officially Friends here at TWeb. (You don't have to be crazy to be my friend, but it helps!) Are you really this testy or are you just testing me?
You're the farthest thing from Fundy RC. Nevertheless, that Ehrman is not RC himself is sufficient proof you're not Ehrmanite. Eremite? Did I misspell something?

[Adrift]

Why did I have to find on the internet some company in India? Because Windows refuses to list phone numbers in local phone books, and even knowing Microsoft is in Seattle did not help because Directory Assistance for Seattle just gave two numbers to call, that were always busy day and night. Since MS knew that Windows 10 was just in Beta, they owed it to us to roll it out gently, no pressure promoting it to us at ten Million roll-outs a week when they knew they couldn't support even 10% of the problems! Microsoft is....I'm stopping before I get another infraction!
I'll never try Windows 10 again.

Yeesh. I didn't know anyone still used a phone book. Microsoft's customer support number is 1-800-Microsoft. Windows 10 was rolled out relatively gently (took some people weeks to get it). If I'm recalling correctly, the Beta was something you had to specifically opt into and download from their website. Later, the Production/Consumer version of Windows 10 was rolled out through Windows Update (with an option to download it online). At any rate, it was not something that was forced upon consumers, and most people I know who have it enjoy it.

[lilpixieofterror]

Yeesh. I didn't know anyone still used a phone book. Microsoft's customer support number is 1-800-Microsoft. Windows 10 was rolled out relatively gently (took some people weeks to get it). If I'm recalling correctly, the Beta was something you had to specifically opt into and download from their website. Later, the Production/Consumer version of Windows 8 was rolled out through Windows Update (with an option to download it online). At any rate, it was not something that was forced upon consumers, and most people I know who have it enjoy it.

People still use phone books? I thought they were things that people left on your doorstep that ended up in a recycle bin about as fast as they show up.