Why I Affirm The Virgin Birth

[Apologiaphoenix]

I'm actually surprised you are taking seriously and answering all that nonsense

I had a few minutes. For the most part, I just see a wall of text any more.

[Gary]

There is no where in the Synoptic Gospels where Jesus claims to be Yahweh, the Creator, or to have been born of a virgin.
There is no where in Paul's epistles where Paul claims that Jesus is Yahweh, the Creator, or that he was born of a virgin.
The evidence strongly indicates that the concept of a virgin birth did not exist in the early decades of Christianity.
The evidence strongly indicates that the concept of Jesus being Yahweh the Creator did not exist in the early decades of Christianity.

Christians can make assumption after assumption otherwise, but the evidence strongly indicates that Paul and Jesus would be shocked to learn that later Christians believed in a Virgin Birth and that Jesus was Yahweh himself, the Creator.

Christians use ONE passage in the Synoptic Gospels to argue that Jesus believed he was Yahweh: that he forgave a man's sins. Christians ASSUME that this indicates that Jesus saw himself as Yahweh. This cannot be proven.

Jesus believed that he was God's special servant. The fact that he believed that he could forgive sins, as God's special servant, in the name of Yahweh, is not surprising. Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew that later Christians claimed that he believed he was Yahweh, the highest form of blasphemy according to the Hebrew Scriptures.

[tabibito]

1/ Paul is not the only authoritative writer of the New Testament.
2/ Paul DID affirm that Christ is the creator.

1 Corinthians 8:6

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

That might be considered ambiguous but for the following:

Colossians 1:15-16

₁₅ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ₁₆ For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

[Gary]

Source: https://www.apologeticspress.org/apc...=6&article=778

Gary: This Christian article then goes on to do some fancy "spin" to explain why it doesn't matter that Jesus quoted a non-existent prophecy. Jesus believed some odd, very new things. The fact that he believed he could forgive sins, therefore, cannot be taken as a clear indication that he believed he was Yahweh. The Synoptics clearly teach that Jesus believed he was the Messiah, that belief in him as the Messiah/Son of God---along with good works and keeping the Law---would merit eternal life. But nowhere does Jesus say that he is Yahweh.

[Gary]

1/ Paul is not the only authoritative writer of the New Testament.
2/ Paul DID affirm that Christ is the creator.

1 Corinthians 8:6

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

That might be considered ambiguous but for the following:

Colossians 1:15-16

₁₅ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ₁₆ For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Yes, the text in I Corinthians is ambiguous.

Colossians is considered by a large percentage of scholars to be a work of fraud. It was not written by Paul, but by a later Christian trying to pass off his work as Paul's to give it authority.

I do not deny that Paul believed that Jesus was divine in some sense, but there is no evidence anywhere that he believed that Jesus was Yahweh, the Creator. This concept is only introduced with the Gospel of John, written circa 100 AD, seventy years after Jesus' death, and thirty years after the Jewish Church had been decimated, leaving Gentiles as the major players in constructing Christian doctrine. No devout Jew---including Paul and Jesus---would have ever elevated a human being to the level of God the Creator.

[tabibito]

The Synoptics clearly teach that Jesus believed he was the Messiah, that belief in him as the Messiah/Son of God---along with good works and keeping the Law---would merit eternal life. But nowhere does Jesus say that he is Yahweh.

Jesus assented to being addressed as God. Does anyone really think that is not equivalent to making the claim to be God?

[Gary]

Jesus assented to being addressed as God. Does anyone really think that is not equivalent to making the claim to be God?

Bible passage, please (in the Synoptics)?

[tabibito]

Colossians is considered by a large percentage of scholars to be a work of fraud. It was not written by Paul, but by a later Christian trying to pass off his work as Paul's to give it authority.

Really? Amazing. Oh well - just have to make do with Philippians then:

Philippians 2:5-8

₅ Let the mind be kept in you which ^was in Christ Jesus, ₆ who existing in the form of God considered being equal with God not treasure, ₇ but emptied himself. Having taken the form of a bondsman, having been made in the likeness of men, ₈ and being found in form as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient to the point of death, even death of the cross.

[Gary]

Really? Amazing. Oh well - just have to make do with Philippians then:

Philippians 2:5-8

₅ Let the mind be kept in you which ^was in Christ Jesus, ₆ who existing in the form of God considered being equal with God not treasure, ₇ but emptied himself. Having taken the form of a bondsman, having been made in the likeness of men, ₈ and being found in form as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient to the point of death, even death of the cross.

This is a CLASSIC Trinitarian misinterpretation of the text:

• Edited by a Moderator •

[One Bad Pig]

I do not deny that Paul believed that Jesus was divine in some sense, but there is no evidence anywhere that he believed that Jesus was Yahweh, the Creator.

In Judaism (in Paul's day, at the least) there was only One who was considered divine in any sense - God.

This concept is only introduced with the Gospel of John, written circa 100 AD, seventy years after Jesus' death, and thirty years after the Jewish Church had been decimated, leaving Gentiles as the major players in constructing Christian doctrine.

The Gospel of John is quite Jewish. That it seems to have been written with the Diaspora in mind does not change that.

No devout Jew---including Paul and Jesus---would have ever elevated a human being to the level of God the Creator.

You've got that sort of backwards.

Source: Phil 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

© Copyright Original Source

ETA: You really need to learn to critically evaluate what you find on the internet. That anti-Trinitarian "analysis" you proffered is painfully flawed. Point 2 is especially egregious.

[Apologiaphoenix]

There is no where in the Synoptic Gospels where Jesus claims to be Yahweh, the Creator, or to have been born of a virgin.

All I care about is claims of deity, and this is like saying the only way Jesus could claim to be deity is by coming out and saying "Hey! I'm God!" Not so. In fact, in the culture of Jesus, such would have been a grab to honor and very shameful. Claims had to be backed by actions and Jesus did back them. Jesus's actions showed that He was the walking embodiment of where the glory of God dwelt in contrast to the temple. Jesus never repeated what other rabbis had to say as all other rabbis did. Jesus spoke on His own authority when interpreting the OT. In fact, Jacob Neusner, a Jewish NT scholar says in looking at the Sermon on the Mount that when Jesus says "You have heard it said, but I say unto you" that a Jew would have been looking and saying "You're handling the Torah this way? Who do you think you are? God?!" Rabbis claimed when Jews gathered to study Torah YHWH was there, but Jesus said when you gather together in my name, I am there. Jesus claimed that He drove out demons by the finger of God without any rituals or such like other exorcists would have done. Jesus did miracles that showed His divine nature that had never been done. Jesus claimed to be the figure that would come and judge Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin.

You don't know these things because you don't read books and when you don't read books, you make embarrassing statements.

There is no where in Paul's epistles where Paul claims that Jesus is Yahweh, the Creator, or that he was born of a virgin.

Bogus entirely. Jesus is included in a Christianized version of the Shema in 1 Cor. 8:4-6. Jesus is said to be the name at which every name will bow in the Philippian hymn and yet that was a direct reference in the OT to YHWH. Jesus is the one who is called upon in Romans 10 in order to be saved but the reference is a reference to YHWH. Jesus is said to be the exact representation of the Father in Hebrews 1. Jesus is prayed to as the coming Lord in 1 Cor. 16 in the maranatha passage. Jesus is declared by Paul to be God over all in Romans 9:5.

Here are some scholarly works on the topic worth considering, which means you won't even bother to look at them.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...s=books&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/How-God-Became...d+Became+Jesus

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-God-Test...s=Jesus+as+God

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Jesus-Chr...d+Jesus+Christ

The evidence strongly indicates that the concept of a virgin birth did not exist in the early decades of Christianity.
The evidence strongly indicates that the concept of Jesus being Yahweh the Creator did not exist in the early decades of Christianity.

The evidence strongly shows that you do not have a clue what the evidence is and you do not read scholarly books but prefer the lazy route of the internet.

Christians can make assumption after assumption otherwise, but the evidence strongly indicates that Paul and Jesus would be shocked to learn that later Christians believed in a Virgin Birth and that Jesus was Yahweh himself, the Creator.

You're reminding me of the joke about Baptist preachers. "Our preachers aren't always right, but they're never in doubt!"

Christians use ONE passage in the Synoptic Gospels to argue that Jesus believed he was Yahweh: that he forgave a man's sins. Christians ASSUME that this indicates that Jesus saw himself as Yahweh. This cannot be proven.

Demonstrated above to be false since multiple indications were used and still more could be added.

Jesus believed that he was God's special servant. The fact that he believed that he could forgive sins, as God's special servant, in the name of Yahweh, is not surprising. Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew that later Christians claimed that he believed he was Yahweh, the highest form of blasphemy according to the Hebrew Scriptures.

David Strauss would roll over in his grave if he knew such ignorant people were representing skepticism today.

[Gary]

In Judaism (in Paul's day, at the least) there was only One who was considered divine in any sense - God.
The Gospel of John is quite Jewish. That it seems to have been written with the Diaspora in mind does not change that.

You've got that sort of backwards.

Source: Phil 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

© Copyright Original Source

ETA: You really need to learn to critically evaluate what you find on the internet. That anti-Trinitarian "analysis" you proffered is painfully flawed. Point 2 is especially egregious.

If Jesus were already Yahweh, there is no need, nor is it possible, to be "exalted" any higher than he currently was. This passage clearly confirms that early Christians believed that the man Jesus was adopted by Yahweh as his Son. Sons are not their fathers.

[Apologiaphoenix]

If Jesus were already Yahweh, there is no need, nor is it possible, to be "exalted" any higher than he currently was. This passage clearly confirms that early Christians believed that the man Jesus was adopted by Yahweh as his Son. Sons are not their fathers.

Exaltation refers to a vindication by the Father of the divine claims that Jesus made in His lifetime. It means that God has placed a stamp of approval on the life of Jesus and shown that the claims He made regarding Himself were correct.

Again, read some books some time and learn something. You're not even making us blink.

[One Bad Pig]

Bible passage, please (in the Synoptics)?

Jesus assented to be worshiped, which he said was due God alone.








Consider also Peter's reaction in Acts (which the vast majority of scholars attribute to one of the synoptic writers) when someone attempts to worship him:

[Gary]

All I care about is claims of deity, and this is like saying the only way Jesus could claim to be deity is by coming out and saying "Hey! I'm God!" Not so. In fact, in the culture of Jesus, such would have been a grab to honor and very shameful. Claims had to be backed by actions and Jesus did back them. Jesus's actions showed that He was the walking embodiment of where the glory of God dwelt in contrast to the temple. Jesus never repeated what other rabbis had to say as all other rabbis did. Jesus spoke on His own authority when interpreting the OT. In fact, Jacob Neusner, a Jewish NT scholar says in looking at the Sermon on the Mount that when Jesus says "You have heard it said, but I say unto you" that a Jew would have been looking and saying "You're handling the Torah this way? Who do you think you are? God?!" Rabbis claimed when Jews gathered to study Torah YHWH was there, but Jesus said when you gather together in my name, I am there. Jesus claimed that He drove out demons by the finger of God without any rituals or such like other exorcists would have done. Jesus did miracles that showed His divine nature that had never been done. Jesus claimed to be the figure that would come and judge Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin.

You don't know these things because you don't read books and when you don't read books, you make embarrassing statements.



Bogus entirely. Jesus is included in a Christianized version of the Shema in 1 Cor. 8:4-6. Jesus is said to be the name at which every name will bow in the Philippian hymn and yet that was a direct reference in the OT to YHWH. Jesus is the one who is called upon in Romans 10 in order to be saved but the reference is a reference to YHWH. Jesus is said to be the exact representation of the Father in Hebrews 1. Jesus is prayed to as the coming Lord in 1 Cor. 16 in the maranatha passage. Jesus is declared by Paul to be God over all in Romans 9:5.

Here are some scholarly works on the topic worth considering, which means you won't even bother to look at them.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...s=books&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/How-God-Became...d+Became+Jesus

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-God-Test...s=Jesus+as+God

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Jesus-Chr...d+Jesus+Christ



The evidence strongly shows that you do not have a clue what the evidence is and you do not read scholarly books but prefer the lazy route of the internet.



You're reminding me of the joke about Baptist preachers. "Our preachers aren't always right, but they're never in doubt!"



Demonstrated above to be false since multiple indications were used and still more could be added.



David Strauss would roll over in his grave if he knew such ignorant people were representing skepticism today.

What a bunch of pontificating, Trinitarian baloney. Let's look at the passages you cite to prop up this Gentile Christian invention:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6

4

There is one "God" the Father, and one "Lord", Jesus Christ. The text clearly indicates that Paul did not see the Father and Jesus as the same being.

Go back to grammar school, Nicky.