Why I Affirm The Virgin Birth

[Gary]

Why should he?



Again, why should he?



That's part of a high-context society. We can see places where Paul does speak about something of Jesus, and it's still doubted. So if Paul mentions it, we can't trust it. If he doesn't, it's proof we can't trust it.



No it doesn't. Consider reading the Federalist Papers. They speak about ancient Greek battles and events in Rome without telling you what they were. The writer assumes you know them already.



Well yes. I agree. Someone is delusional here. Someone actually thinks they speak seriously on the topic and that people are paying attention to them.

The idea that you're propounding about Paul radically changing Christianity was killed by E.P. Sanders years ago.

Do yourself a favor and go to a library and read some books there.

Paul was bipolar. Any intern in his first month of training can see that.

He has massive mood swings; great highs and great lows. At times he is, without a doubt, delusional, thinking he was (or might have been, he isn't sure) transported to a "third heaven" and has heard things he should tell "no man", and at other times he is deeply depressed.

It is quite possible that when Paul refers to his "thorn in the flesh" he is referring to his mental health issues.

Paul needed medication, not a "savior".

[Gary]

No. Jesus was a flash in the pan if you know how to do history.

You don't, so.....

Breaking news: History books do not record Jesus as a historical figure, but as a probable historical figure, unlike persons such as Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and even Mohammad. Look it up.

[Bill the Cat]

Not if most of the Jewish followers of this new religion were dead (70 AD) and all the new converts were Gentiles who didn't know any better.

So, you think someone can just create a new myth and everyone who was in the middle of it, being a member for decades, would just allow that lie to go unchallenged? Someone comes along next week and tells you that Hitchens was actually a cross dressing female, and that everyone knew it for years, you'd believe it?

[Bill the Cat]

The scholarly consensus is that Josephus never mentioned Jesus, or if he did, made a very brief one or two line statement. If Jesus caused the commotion that the Bible says he did, there should be something of significance said in both Philo and Josephus' writings. The only way to get around this stupefying silence in the copious writings of these two first century Jews is to reinterpret the Bible, which I believe is Nick's position:

The "commotion" insinuated in the Gospels is an embellishment. Jesus was barely noticed. Only after his death did he become known.

Spin, spin, spin.

You sure love to make unfounded claims, don't you?

[Gary]

No. Jesus was a flash in the pan if you know how to do history.

You don't, so.....

I know it upsets Christians for non-Christians to refer to Jesus as a demi-god, but by definition of that term, that is how Jews and most other non-Christians view the claim that Jesus' father was a god, and his mother was a human. And demi-gods come a dime a dozen in CLASSIC Greco-Roman mythology. Justin Martyr even refers to this similarity between Christianity and the Greco-Roman religions. One can argue whether or not pagan mythology claimed any virgin births, but you can't say that pagan mythology did not have demi-gods.

Only Christians believe that Jesus was fully god and fully human at the same time. To non-Christians this is nonsensical gibberish. To non-Christians, the Christian religion claims that a demi-god died on a cross and was resurrected three days later by his all-powerful father. To us this sounds no different than stories of Zeus or Jupiter and their demi-god sons.

And Christian mythology on this subject is actually much more outlandish than the Roman and Greek demi-god myths. Trinitarian Christianity teaches that God came to earth in the form of a man, and in some manner conceived...himself...with the assistance of the uterus and egg of a human woman; a woman he would later call "Mom".

I'm sorry, but no thinking Jew would buy this story and that is exactly why in the second half of the first century, Jewish authorities banned Jewish Christians from the synagogues. Their ever evolving christology had just become too ridiculous (and blasphemous) to even consider them "Jewish" in any sense.

[Bill the Cat]

...and that is exactly why in the second half of the first century, Jewish authorities banned Jewish Christians from the synagogues.

No. They were banned in Philadelphia because they believed Jesus was Messiah, and thus considered renegades in Benediction 12. It had nothing to do with any 'developing Christology".

[Gary]

You sure love to make unfounded claims, don't you?

That IS Nick's claim. You can read it above: "Jesus was just a flash in the pan."

[Gary]

No. They were banned in Philadelphia because they believed Jesus was Messiah, and thus considered renegades in Benediction 12. It had nothing to do with any 'developing Christology".

http://www.moshereiss.org/christiani...08_parting.htm

[One Bad Pig]

So, you think someone can just create a new myth and everyone who was in the middle of it, being a member for decades, would just allow that lie to go unchallenged? Someone comes along next week and tells you that Hitchens was actually a cross dressing female, and that everyone knew it for years, you'd believe it?

Nope. Modern rationalists are way too smart to fall for something like that. Bronze Age goat herders, on the other hand. . . .

[Apologiaphoenix]

Paul was bipolar. Any intern in his first month of training can see that.

Ever since Young Man Luther psycho-history has been discredited. It's difficult enough with a patient right before you that you can interview and ask questions even if you're a trained psychiatrist. It's hard enough with another time, culture, place, and another language.

He has massive mood swings; great highs and great lows. At times he is, without a doubt, delusional, thinking he was (or might have been, he isn't sure) transported to a "third heaven" and has heard things he should tell "no man", and at other times he is deeply depressed.

Strong expressions of mood are common in ANE thought in an honor-shame culture. You were to be openly expressive in your emotions. As for the idea of being delusional, this only follows if you can demonstrate that there is no validity to any such near-death experience. That needs to be demonstrated and not assumed.

It is quite possible that when Paul refers to his "thorn in the flesh" he is referring to his mental health issues.

Based on how the word is used by the rabbis and by Aristotle, it more likely refers to a lack of oratory ability by Paul.

Paul needed medication, not a "savior".

You need to read some books instead of relying on pop atheism.

I know it upsets Christians for non-Christians to refer to Jesus as a demi-god, but by definition of that term, that is how Jews and most other non-Christians view the claim that Jesus' father was a god, and his mother was a human. And demi-gods come a dime a dozen in CLASSIC Greco-Roman mythology. Justin Martyr even refers to this similarity between Christianity and the Greco-Roman religions. One can argue whether or not pagan mythology claimed any virgin births, but you can't say that pagan mythology did not have demi-gods.

No. It doesn't upset us. You actually act like you're someone to get upset over. You're not. I get done responding to you and I go to join my wife for the movie I'm watching and probably play some games on my Kindle and read. Nothing here to challenge. As for Justin Martyr, yes. He referred to the similarities. Do you know why?

Only Christians believe that Jesus was fully god and fully human at the same time. To non-Christians this is nonsensical gibberish. To non-Christians, the Christian religion claims that a demi-god died on a cross and was resurrected three days later by his all-powerful father. To us this sounds no different than stories of Zeus or Jupiter and their demi-god sons.

Not so. Saying that you non-Christians think it is false does not mean they think it nonsensical or gibberish. Now I know what the claim means to you. Why should I care?

And Christian mythology on this subject is actually much more outlandish than the Roman and Greek demi-god myths. Trinitarian Christianity teaches that God came to earth in the form of a man, and in some manner conceived...himself...with the assistance of the uterus and egg of a human woman; a woman he would later call "Mom".

Before you say we teach something, you might want to get what we teach right.

I'm sorry, but no thinking Jew would buy this story and that is exactly why in the second half of the first century, Jewish authorities banned Jewish Christians from the synagogues. Their ever evolving christology had just become too ridiculous (and blasphemous) to even consider them "Jewish" in any sense.

You know this only helps build my case....

Oh. As for Jesus's history being probable....

Feel free to show the history books. Among scholars in the field, this isn't a debate. Out of thousands, you can count the number who deny the existence of Jesus on one hand. Even G.A. Wells who wasn't a scholar has backed down on his position.

[Bill the Cat]

In the early first century, it was not a crime in Judaism to believe you were the messiah, it was a crime to believe you were God himself.

Jesus wasn't the one banned from the synagogues. Jewish Christians were. Claiming to be the Messiah was not a crime, but worshipping someone who claimed to be the Messiah was.

Do you really believe that the high priest, Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, and other Jewish authorities in Jerusalem would allow James, the bishop of Jerusalem, and the other Jewish Christians to worship in the temple, celebrate Jewish religious festivals in the temple, and undergo Jewish purification rites (as did Paul) in the temple, if Christians were proclaiming (in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's) that Jesus was Yahweh himself in the flesh???

Yes. Because the Romans were in charge and demanded they maintain order.

Preposterous!

You seem to be under the impression that the Jews were in charge. That's simple balderdash.

Only after the Jewish Church had been decimated in 70 AD, did High Christology kick into high gear among the Gentile branch of Christianity. Jewish Christians would never have accepted Jesus as the virgin born...Yahweh! It is a later Gentile invention; an invention of the Gentile Christian authors of the Gospels.

Completely false.

http://www.moshereiss.org/christiani...08_parting.htm

Nice 1990's web site from someone with ZERO credentials in New Testament history or Early Church development. He has a BA in philosophy and a JD from Yale Law. He shows absolutely no knowledge of Wisdom theology. Nothing he claimed is at all sourced by real scholars.

[Gary]

Why would someone writing to predominantly Gentile churches need to mention a Jewish prophecy?



Because those things were not under any dispute in those churches. Paul's letters were typically to handle disputes.



It was unnecessary.



Again, unnecessary.



Please cite where they thought He was mad...



Bald assertion.



MATES? This alone shows you have no real interest in anything that is contrary to your presuppositions.



Bald assertion



bald assertion



Bald assertion.



Wrong. They are not different.



Unfounded opinion.



Circular argument



Opinion.



Because that would bring shame to Him. Standard honor/shame practices.



Baseless claims.




Unfounded opinion.

"Please cite where they said he was mad."

[Mikeenders]

Nice 1990's web site from someone with ZERO credentials in New Testament history or Early Church development. He has a BA in philosophy and a JD from Yale Law. He shows absolutely no knowledge of Wisdom theology. Nothing he claimed is at all sourced by real scholars.

No fair. If its on the internet and can be copy and pasted it should count. After all technically its published work

[Mikeenders]

Ever since Young Man Luther psycho-history has been discredited. It's difficult enough with a patient right before you that you can interview and ask questions even if you're a trained psychiatrist. It's hard enough with another time, culture, place, and another language......Strong expressions of mood are common in ANE thought in an honor-shame culture. You were to be openly expressive in your emotions. As for the idea of being delusional, this only follows if you can demonstrate that there is no validity to any such near-death experience. That needs to be demonstrated and not assumed.

I'm actually surprised you are taking seriously and answering all that nonsense

[Mikeenders]

Do you really believe that the high priest, Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, and other Jewish authorities in Jerusalem would allow James, the bishop of Jerusalem, and the other Jewish Christians to worship in the temple, celebrate Jewish religious festivals in the temple, and undergo Jewish purification rites (as did Paul) in the temple, if Christians were proclaiming (in the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's) that Jesus was Yahweh himself in the flesh???

You tell em Gary. Shucks it wouldn't even have got that far. Its preposterous. If there were a guy claiming that they would have crucified him