Why is Bruce an Exception?

[fm93]

I think it's fair to say that some people are demanding that everyone affirm the choice Jenner made. Some people have insisted that it is rude to use "Bruce" or masculine pronouns. Of course, some people won't do that because they think it's giving in and affirming it.

While I understand that some people don't want to use "Caitlyn," it seems to me that in a sense, it isn't quite accurate to use "Bruce" either.

I'm like AP, I agree that it is a delusion. In fact, I wrote my own piece on it and it was the most "Liked" thing I've ever written. People, as a whole, are just astounded by the insane idea that we can turn a male into a female in any meaningful way. It is so clearly a mental issue to the vast majority of people that all the affirmation and lauding seems quite bizarre.

I'm fairly certain that I explained multiple times in this thread that "delusion" isn't really the right description, no matter whether one affirms it or not.

[djbrock]

I'm fairly certain that I explained multiple times in this thread that "delusion" isn't really the right description, no matter whether one affirms it or not.

Jenner thinks he was given a female soul by God to offset all his other wonderful attributes - like a "thorn in the flesh". He thinks that by reshaping parts of his body (and not even going all the way) or having the ability to change his chromosomes from XY to XX that he has somehow reached a state of femininity. It sounds like self-delusion to me; but I'm happy to simply call it CRAZY.
Here is it called a "disorder of 'assumption' but no matter how we describe it, it is not the product of a rational, sound mind.

[Cow Poke]

This whole thing is just so bizarre, but I think you hit the nail on the head CP. Bruce Jenner is a lot of things, but for many of us, a girl he aint!

EGGzackly - it's like it flies in the face of all of the Wisdom of the Bible... and there is a whole crowd of loonies that feel obligated to applaud this insanity to show how "open" or "accepting" they are. I think a TRUE friend would take Bruce aside and say, "you know, it's not working - you can pretend all you want to be a girl, but you're only fooling those who don't have the COURAGE to be honest with you.

THAT is where the courage comes in. Instead, the loonies applaud and affirm and go along with the pretending.

[Cow Poke]

While I understand that some people don't want to use "Caitlyn," it seems to me that in a sense, it isn't quite accurate to use "Bruce" either.

Which is why a lot of people here who seem to support him don't use any first name or gender pronoun at all, referring him to him simply as "Jenner". I was going to mention that earlier, that a lot of the posts supporting Jenner seem to be carefully word in such a way as to avoid using "Caitlyn" or "she".

I'm fairly certain that I explained multiple times in this thread that "delusion" isn't really the right description, no matter whether one affirms it or not.

Explaining something multiple times - even a hundred thousand times - doesn't make it true.

[Truthseeker]

. . .
he thinks that . . . having the ability to change his chromosomes from XY to XX that he has somehow reached a state of femininity.

Maybe he thinks he can change from XY to XX. Did he really try to change? Anyway, is that possible? I don't think so.

[djbrock]

Jenner thinks he was given a female soul by God to offset all his other wonderful attributes - like a "thorn in the flesh". He thinks that by reshaping parts of his body (and not even going all the way) or having the ability to change his chromosomes from XY to XX that he has somehow reached a state of femininity.

There's the full quote. No. It is not possible to change your chromosomes, and that is the point. He also can't add a womb or ovaries or make many other changes even through surgery and hormone treatment. It is scientifically impossible and bizarre.

[fm93]

Jenner thinks he was given a female soul by God to offset all his other wonderful attributes - like a "thorn in the flesh". He thinks that by reshaping parts of his body (and not even going all the way) or having the ability to change his chromosomes from XY to XX that he has somehow reached a state of femininity.

Actually, if Jenner thinks the soul is female, the belief would more accurately be phrased as "expressing the inherent state of femininity that already exists," not "reaching a state."

EGGzackly - it's like it flies in the face of all of the Wisdom of the Bible

Genuinely curious...we know what verses are commonly used in arguments about gay rights and homosexuality, but specifically what verses do you have in mind regarding transgender issues?

[Cow Poke]

Genuinely curious...we know what verses are commonly used in arguments about gay rights and homosexuality, but specifically what verses do you have in mind regarding transgender issues?

None.

See, this is one of the reasons I have trouble taking you seriously... I said NOTHING about verses having to do with transgender issues. You apparently just assumed that.

[fm93]

None.

See, this is one of the reasons I have trouble taking you seriously... I said NOTHING about verses having to do with transgender issues. You apparently just assumed that.

You said "it [Jenner's actions, which constitute transgender issues] flies in the face of all of the Wisdom of the Bible." In literally every instance that I've ever heard someone say something like that, the person has meant "it is contrary to what certain verses say/imply." It wasn't an unreasonable assumption that when you used that same language, you were saying that there were verses applicable to transgender issues.

What did you mean by "it flies in the face of all of the Wisdom of the Bible," then, if not "it's contrary to what certain verses say/imply?"

[Cow Poke]

You said "it [Jenner's actions, which constitute transgender issues] flies in the face of all of the Wisdom of the Bible."

No, that's what you do --- you ASSumed that "it" specifically referred to "Jenner's transgender issues". I was being much more general than that. But I suppose it would be way too much trouble to ASK rather than assume.

[Juvenal]

No, that's what you do --- you ASSumed that "it" specifically referred to "Jenner's transgender issues". I was being much more general than that. But I suppose it would be way too much trouble to ASK rather than assume.

Nah, he's right. You got busted using the authority of the bible without being able to cite the bible's support. Worse, rather than admitting your mistake, you attacked the guy who pointed it out. That's lame.

And just btw, the "ass" in "assume" has nothing to do with the meaning of the word. More, if the popular expression was actually followed, all science would stop immediately. Folks aping that saying are simply asinine. </pet peeve>

[Cow Poke]

Nah, he's right. You got busted using the authority of the bible without being able to cite the bible's support. Worse, rather than admitting your mistake, you attacked the guy who pointed it out. That's lame.

Naw, actually, I wasn't citing any verses. I had in mind some biblical principles. And it wasn't about Jenner's gender confusion specifically.

[djbrock]

Transgender was not an option in the Biblical times. Cross-dressing and cross-dressing for the purposes of homosexual behavior was. See 1 Cor. 6:9 where the KJV has "effeminate" which is understood to be the passive, "female" partner in a homosexual relation. Deut. 22:5 also forbids cross-dressing. You can see an explanation of the reason here.

[Cow Poke]

EGGzackly - it's like it flies in the face of all of the Wisdom of the Bible...

For the record, I was referring generally to the Wisdom of Proverbs. In the sections where the style of writing is a father talking to his son, he is instructing the son to "get wisdom", "get understanding", and explaining that there is a way that makes sense to the world, but we are to rely on God. I didn't have any particular verses in mind, which is why I referred to "all of the Wisdom of the Bible" as opposed to "the Bible says".

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Jenner seems to mock God by implying that God purposely gave Bruce gender confusion just to irritate him. God is our creator - when something is wrong with His Creation, it makes sense to me to check with the Creator to know what to do about it. As has been said here over and over, it just doesn't make sense to physically change our body because our mind is confused. That, specifically, seems to me to "go against all the Wisdom of the Bible".

I don't believe Bruce will find peace by having surgery and dressing like a woman. I believe he can find peace in Christ.

If you want to narrow it down to some specific passages about this general confusion, Proverbs 4 serves quite well....

1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.

2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.

4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

[Juvenal]

Naw, actually, I wasn't citing any verses. I had in mind some biblical principles. And it wasn't about Jenner's gender confusion specifically.

Abby said, "Bruce Jenner is a lot of things, but for many of us, a girl he aint!" You want to claim that wasn't about gender confusion specifically? Go ahead. I'll get you a bigger shovel. Stop digging yourself in deeper trying to justify your dismissal of an honest question. That gets old really fast.

Frankly, I'm curious too. This ain't a "gotcha," either. I'd imagine with some time and thought, I could construct an apologetic showing that the god that shows up in the bible wouldn't have created humans with built-in gender mismatches, even if I can't think of any offhand. Folks who think the bible comes from the one true God are going to find it just as hard to dismiss that as they find it hard to dismiss the Levitical denunciations of homosexuality.

Personally, I don't see much point arguing against folks sincere religious beliefs, so if there really are biblical principles involved, I'd like to know about them. On the other hand, otherwise, there's room to change some minds and make the world a bit safer for gays and transgenders. That's something worth pursuing for me.