Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is nonsense Jim. So when atheists slaughter and enslave millions like in the former Soviet Union, China under Mao, North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba, etc... what do you say to them? That you personally object? Why is your moral opinion more correct or valid than theirs? This is the bottom line Jim, if there is no God then there is no objective moral law, no final justice. If there is a God, i.e. the God of scripture, then there is an objective moral rule. And ultimate justice.
I think I already know what your rebuttal will be to this last question. "Where is the ultimate justice, the punishment and the reward." Correct?Last edited by JimL; 08-26-2014, 11:49 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell you can assert that it is nonsense, but if God did not exist, or even if you just no longer believed in his existence, would you lose all sense of morality? Would commiting murder, slavery, theft, etc etc. no longer have a moral aspect to it from your own personal perspective? I think it would! I'm an athiest, not because i want to be free of moral responsibility or authority as the Christian accusation often goes, i'm an atheist because i see no necessity or evidence of a God with regards to existence or morality. People that do evil things come from all ideologies as well, including christians, so trying to equate atheism with evil or immorality is disengenuous at best. Btw seer, Hitler, if i'm not mistaken, was a christian. And if you want to get really specific, the christian God himself ordered the slaughter and enslavement of who knows how many, but like in the case of Mao, Stalin, Pol pot, Idi Amin etc etc. it is rationalized away as justifiable homicide. Anyways, there are millions of atheists out there that have the same moral compass, the same sense of right and wrong, as theists do and they don't need a God in order to have a sense of right and wrong. How do you account for that?
I think I already know what your rebuttal will be to this last question. "Where is the ultimate justice, the punishment and the reward." Correct?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim, first Hitler was not a "Christian" but like most men of that time he did attend church when he was young.
Second, if God did decide to take the life of a man or men that act would be perfectly just - how could it be otherwise?
Third, you know that Christian theology teaches that men live beyond that life. So even when God finds it necessary to remove men from this world that is not the end of their story.
Fourth, morality makes no sense apart from objective moral truths. Just as mathematics or the laws of logic would make no sense if they were subjective and dependent on personal or cultural opinion."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThis is actually a more complicated topic than people on either side tend to make it. Hitler was actually a quite devout Roman Catholic in his youth, and very nearly entered seminary with the goal of taking Holy Orders. By the end of his life, however, his view of Christianity had shifted quite a bit. At best, he would have been a highly unorthodox Christian, at that point. Still, he was very much a Christian throughout his rise to power, and it is very clear that much of was influenced by Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies."
Well, it's nice to know where you stand on Euthyphro's dilemma. Incidentally, I held pretty much the same position when I was a Christian.
This depends on the theology and the men. There are quite a number of Christians who teach Annihilationism-- that the death of an unsaved sinner results in the complete destruction of their soul, rather than infinite torment. Of course, that's only a minor quibble to the point you are making.
I would disagree to this. So long as one can present a cogent definition for "morality," it makes sense whether there are objective moral truths or not.Last edited by seer; 08-27-2014, 09:17 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell you can assert that it is nonsense, but if God did not exist, or even if you just no longer believed in his existence, would you lose all sense of morality? Would commiting murder, slavery, theft, etc etc. no longer have a moral aspect to it from your own personal perspective?
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is false Boxing. Nazi ideology was based mostly on the idea of creating a super-race, and if it had a religion it was Norse mixed with the occult. And in his life I believe Hitler had disavowed the Christian religion as being weak, I can find the quotes if you wish. But you are correct that they used the writings of Luther. Also, I think it was Stalin, not Hitler, that nearly entered seminary.
Would you say this about the laws of logic or mathematics?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostIt's really not false, at all. The vast majority of Nazis were practicing Christians, despite the occult leanings of some of the elite. Hitler, as I mentioned, was quite devout and nearly entered the priesthood. Later in his life, his contemporaries reported that Hitler viewed Christianity with derision, but this was certainly a different view than he had earlier in his rise to power.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EXPBEVW
No, they weren't "practicing Christians" at all. Even to say they were "highly unorthodox" doesn't do justice to the matter. He and leading Nazis adhered to a cultic deviancy they called "Positive Christianity". Denied anywhere from 60-90% of the Bible, turned Jesus into an Aryan superman, and totally ignored doctrinal issues.
I recall nothing in the leading biographies (Kershaw, etc.) saying that Hitler wanted to enter the priesthood. He expressed thoughts of apostasy when he was in his early teens. I think you may be thinking of Goebbels there.
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“The catholic church has spilt more blood than any other religion.”
Hitler, as reported by Reinhold Hanisch, circa 1910.[23]
“The enemies of National Socialism include not only the ‘jewish Marxists’ and the catholics but also certain elements of an incorrigible, stupid and reactionary bourgeoisie.”
Speech by Hitler, 1 April 1933
I don't think we have evidence of a devout Catholic here.
Himmler, Goebells, Hoss, and Frank were (at least nominally) Catholic. The first State to give the Third Reich official recognition was the Vatican.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostIt's really not false, at all. The vast majority of Nazis were practicing Christians, despite the occult leanings of some of the elite. Hitler, as I mentioned, was quite devout and nearly entered the priesthood. Later in his life, his contemporaries reported that Hitler viewed Christianity with derision, but this was certainly a different view than he had earlier in his rise to power.
Yes. We define these concepts in specific ways. The history of mathematics is one of my favorite subjects to discuss, and it illustrates this fact quite eloquently. Ancient Greek mathematics operated under very different rules than modern Calculus. Cartesian geometry is very different than non-Euclidean geometry. The manner in which the concept is defined determines its utility.Last edited by seer; 08-27-2014, 11:43 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBTW do you have a link for the claim that Hitler was going to enter the priesthood?
I'm speaking of basic math. Does two plus two always equal four? Is that objectively true no matter where you are in the universe?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by jpholding View PostAw, you can do better than that. I did.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EXPBEVW
No, they weren't "practicing Christians" at all. Even to say they were "highly unorthodox" doesn't do justice to the matter. He and leading Nazis adhered to a cultic deviancy they called "Positive Christianity". Denied anywhere from 60-90% of the Bible, turned Jesus into an Aryan superman, and totally ignored doctrinal issues.
I recall nothing in the leading biographies (Kershaw, etc.) saying that Hitler wanted to enter the priesthood. He expressed thoughts of apostasy when he was in his early teens. I think you may be thinking of Goebbels there."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThe Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William Shirer. I'll see if I can pull the exact quote.
Only for very clear definitions of "two," "plus," and "four." When we clearly define that which we are attempting to describe, we can evaluate objective properties for that concept. The same goes for any concept, be it logic or morality or music theory or comic book art.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI'm not sure what that means.
Arithmetic is universal for the exact same reason that, no matter where you are in the universe, a bachelor is an unmarried man. It is because they are strictly defined.
Again, the law of non-contradiction is universal and objective. How are prohibitions against murdering your neighbor universal and objective?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostIt means that we have very clear definitions for "two," "plus," and "four" that most people take for granted because they have never been exposed to the actual foundations of mathematics. For example, if you see the phrase 2+2, you immediately think 2+2=4. However, I happen to be a computer scientist, by trade. If I see the phrase 2+2 while I'm evaluating a logic gate, I immediately think 2+2=1, because those symbols have distinctly different meanings in Logic Algebra than they have in Arithmetic. Or, I might actually be performing some arithmetic, but on some variables which exist in three possible states. In that instance, I would see 2+2 and think 2+2=11 because ternary numbers might simplify my job.
Arithmetic is universal for the exact same reason that, no matter where you are in the universe, a bachelor is an unmarried man. It is because they are strictly defined.
Again, I'll leave the defense of specific precepts of moral objectivity to those who support that concept. My goal was simply to point out that such people do exist.
So perhaps I am misunderstanding your point here.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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