A Look At The Olivet Discourse

[seanD]

Verses 27-28.

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They may not have completely understood the concept of his resurrection, but John 14 tells us what they were inquiring about his coming.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Different word used. Matthew is about the Parousia. John uses erchomai. Note they weren't asking about a coming there anyway. He was telling them He was going to prepare a place for them. This is also not in the Olivet Discourse. It's comparing apples and oranges.

[seanD]

Different word used. Matthew is about the Parousia. John uses erchomai. Note they weren't asking about a coming there anyway. He was telling them He was going to prepare a place for them. This is also not in the Olivet Discourse. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Matthew 24:30 also uses erchomai. So by your logic, Jesus was referring to the 70 AD war in John 14.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Jesus also talked about leaving in the Upper Room discourse in John. He had said nothing about leaving on the Mount of Olives and the disciples made it clear that they didn't understand what Jesus was saying in that passage. Jesus is also talking about returning to His people in John 14. In Matthew, He's talking about coming in judgment.

[seanD]

Jesus also talked about leaving in the Upper Room discourse in John. He had said nothing about leaving on the Mount of Olives and the disciples made it clear that they didn't understand what Jesus was saying in that passage. Jesus is also talking about returning to His people in John 14. In Matthew, He's talking about coming in judgment.

I agree that the disciples were thoroughly confused. Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture (which is NOT pre-trib) and this is what he was speaking of in John 14. He was clarifying the misunderstanding by using erchomai (rapture) and parousia (second coming) to distinguish the two. Nonetheless, anyone looking at John 14's reference can clearly see he's speaking of a second coming -- "I will come again" -- contrary to what you said in post #30. In fact, everything about what I bolded in your post #30 is just thoroughly wrong and full of error, but I won't get into it.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Sean. Jesus will bodily return someday. Every Orthodox Preterist agrees with that. My thing in post 30 was saying the language of coming in the discourse is a coming to Earth. I see no reason to think that a rapture is being described in Matthew 24. Jesus talks about the reference to Daniel where the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days. He's going up and not coming down.

[seanD]

Okay, man. You can believe what you want to believe, but I feel folks should know the errors you made in your prior post. Like you stated matter of factly they had no concept he would die, yet this is ignoring passages to the contrary. There were early rabbinic beliefs that Messiah would die, and John 11:16 is a pretty good indication they were expecting this, though I'll concede it's debatable whether they all believed this. Did you not know about that passage? We might assume they couldn't quite grasp the dynamic of the resurrection, but he did tell them beforehand multiple times, so they at least were knowledgeable about it. What I'll agree with is that they DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be crucified. That we know for sure, and that's undoubtedly what nullified any belief they may have had in his resurrection prior, but the OD obviously occurred before this. Then you implied they had no knowledge he would leave and return when in fact, as I pointed out, John 14 clearly indicates they did, and so there's no reason to assume this wasn't what they were inquiring about in the OD. But again, believe what you want to believe, I just feel folks should know how you base all this on some pretty significant errors.

I'm done.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Okay, man. You can believe what you want to believe, but I feel folks should know the errors you made in your prior post. Like you stated matter of factly they had no concept he would die, yet this is ignoring passages to the contrary.

No it's not. When Jesus first mentions His death, Peter is dumbfounded and says this won't happen. They are going to Jerusalem and they are expecting that He will proclaim Himself Messiah, especially after the triumphant entry.

There were early rabbinic beliefs that Messiah would die, and John 11:16 is a pretty good indication they were expecting this, though I'll concede it's debatable whether they all believed this.

No it's not. The with him was quite likely Lazarus in that passage and not Jesus. As for early Rabbinic beliefs Messiah would die, I would need to see them.

Did you not know about that passage?

Yeah. I do. Kind of doubtful you do now.

We might assume they couldn't quite grasp the dynamic of the resurrection, but he did tell them beforehand multiple times, so they at least were knowledgeable about it.

Yeah. Look at times like the transfiguration. When Jesus talks about "rising again" the disciples are confused what that means.

What I'll agree with is that they DEFINITELY didn't expect him to be crucified.

Even though Luke 9:22 specifically says that so by your argument given.....

[QUOTE] That we know for sure, and that's undoubtedly what nullified any belief they may have had in his resurrection prior, but the OD obviously occurred before this. [/QUOTE[

Duh.

Then you implied they had no knowledge he would leave and return when in fact, as I pointed out, John 14 clearly indicates they did, and so there's no reason to assume this wasn't what they were inquiring about in the OD.

Yeah there is. This happened on the night that Jesus was betrayed. So what happened? Jesus has the upper room discourse with them and on the way out, they briefly stop at the temple and then go to the Mount of Olives and have a long talk that John completely leaves out and then go to the garden for the high priestly prayer?

Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

But again, believe what you want to believe, I just feel folks should know how you base all this on some pretty significant errors.

It would be nice to know what they are.

I'm done.

No doubt there.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Is chaos in the heavens future?

Linka more common reading

[Apologiaphoenix]

Signs. Signs. Everywhere a sign.

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[Apologiaphoenix]

Calling all angels.

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[Apologiaphoenix]

But God hates figs. Right?

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[Apologiaphoenix]

What does this generation mean?

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[Apologiaphoenix]

Does this generation mean that generation?

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[Apologiaphoenix]

Does generation mean race?

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