Book Plunge: Finding The Will Of God, A Pagan Notion?

[Scrawly]

Deflection and avoidance of the issues at hand duly noted.

Wow. Slow down, my brother.

I'm beginning to reconsider the idea of taking you seriously.

Interesting.

Did you have a point, or were you merely attempting to sow confusion? Continued avoidance will merely confirm the latter position. I'm looking for meat here, and your response is leaving me starving.

Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Prov. 6:1-5)

"In the house of the righteous there is much treasure, but trouble befalls the income of the wicked." (Prov. 15:6)

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." (Matt. 16:9)

These are two examples of disparate voices within the scriptures. The thrust of the book of proverbs is a voice of wisdom that affords one the opportunity and justification to lead a safe, tranquil existence -- a normal life essentially indistinguishable from unbelievers on a practical level, by and large -- the majority of Christian's in wealthy nations choose to follow this voice, for obvious reasons. Then there is the radical voice of Jesus and his Apostle's that calls for believers to walk a narrow, difficult path and this voice (if literally obeyed) produces more fanatical minded believers -- such as the C.T Studd's and Paul Washer's of the world -- "We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!" (1Cor. 4:10).

Now, if you disagree or find yourself confused; please, ask for clarification or disagree in a civilized manner. Thank you very much.

[Scrawly]

I'll expand a bit further, and perhaps I am misstating things, if so, I would happily receive correction and revise my view. Please be reminded that I am not so much highlighting contradictions. Rather, I am highlighting disparate voices that result in "wise Christian's" and "radical Christian's". Let's take a look at Matt. 19:29 & 1Tim. 5:8.

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

It seems that the nascent Jesus-movement resulted in radical calls of abandon to the will of God with the Kingdom in full view, and the cares of this life ruthlessly set aside. Then the church became more organized and structured and the radicalism gradually dissipated to a more wise way of conducting oneself in this world. To this very day we have devout Christian's that deeply desire to follow the will of God, and they end up following in the spiritual steps of the "wise Christian's" or the "radical Christian's". Now, a brief exchange between a "wise Christian" and a "radical Christian", if I may:

Radical Christian:

"Dear Friend, this world is passing away! Let us use our God given talents, our resources, nay; our very lives for his eternal kingdom! O, dear friend! This life is but a breath in light of eternity! Let us abandon to the will of God with the single-mindedness displayed by our Lord and his Apostle's -- I desire to know nothing but Christ crucified! I will not serve money! I trust my Master to take care of my needs! I will advance against the kingdom of darkness with all that I have and all that I am! How could I do any less for my God who has redeemed me unto eternal salvation!?"

Wise Christian:

"Yes, well, it appears you are displaying characteristics of unwise fanaticism. Perhaps it is advisable to speak with a professional and/or conduct a CAT scan to ensure that your fanatical tendencies are not the result of any sort of brain damage or the like, and are truly grounded in God's will for your life. You see, I'm afraid your attitude and emphasis does not take into account the totality of revelation. Despite being Christian, we are still human and we need to function wisely in this world and live a balanced life in all godliness and goodness and enjoy the God-given pleasures that he has graciously bestowed upon us, my dear friend.

[Jedidiah]

As for the OP, I have a hard time considering how "finding the will of God" is a "me centered" thing. Surely nothing could be less self centered than seeking to do the will of God. I do mean "finding the will of God" in the most general sense, and not referring to those looking for actual voice instruction or whatever.

I think the reference is to looking at a search for detailed instructions on specific issues. It is as though God requires us to seek out our secret guide to life God want us to live. It is this "secret" will that is the self centered business, at least as far as I am able to see.

[One Bad Pig]

I'll expand a bit further, and perhaps I am misstating things, if so, I would happily receive correction and revise my view. Please be reminded that I am not so much highlighting contradictions. Rather, I am highlighting disparate voices that result in "wise Christian's" and "radical Christian's". Let's take a look at Matt. 19:29 & 1Tim. 5:8.

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

It seems that the nascent Jesus-movement resulted in radical calls of abandon to the will of God with the Kingdom in full view, and the cares of this life ruthlessly set aside. Then the church became more organized and structured and the radicalism gradually dissipated to a more wise way of conducting oneself in this world. To this very day we have devout Christian's that deeply desire to follow the will of God, and they end up following in the spiritual steps of the "wise Christian's" or the "radical Christian's". Now, a brief exchange between a "wise Christian" and a "radical Christian", if I may:

Radical Christian:

"Dear Friend, this world is passing away! Let us use our God given talents, our resources, nay; our very lives for his eternal kingdom! O, dear friend! This life is but a breath in light of eternity! Let us abandon to the will of God with the single-mindedness displayed by our Lord and his Apostle's -- I desire to know nothing but Christ crucified! I will not serve money! I trust my Master to take care of my needs! I will advance against the kingdom of darkness with all that I have and all that I am! How could I do any less for my God who has redeemed me unto eternal salvation!?"

Wise Christian:

"Yes, well, it appears you are displaying characteristics of unwise fanaticism. Perhaps it is advisable to speak with a professional and/or conduct a CAT scan to ensure that your fanatical tendencies are not the result of any sort of brain damage or the like, and are truly grounded in God's will for your life. You see, I'm afraid your attitude and emphasis does not take into account the totality of revelation. Despite being Christian, we are still human and we need to function wisely in this world and live a balanced life in all godliness and goodness and enjoy the God-given pleasures that he has graciously bestowed upon us, my dear friend.

If your intent was to confirm my inclination to not take you seriously, you've succeeded.

[KingsGambit]

If your intent was to confirm my inclination to not take you seriously, you've succeeded.

What specifically is wrong with his reasoning here?

I'm not in full agreement with the implications he presents but there are reasonable questions presented.

[Scrawly]

What specifically is wrong with his reasoning here?

I'm not in full agreement with the implications he presents but there are reasonable questions presented.

Yes, it is a thorny issue, to be sure. Now, this will undoubtedly open an eschatological can of worms but I think it directly ties into the fanaticism we find in scripture -- the belief in the imminent return of the Messiah. Passages of scripture seem to clearly indicate that the Apostle's and early believers were expecting Christ to return "soon". Therefore, why on earth (which is passing away) would you spend time engrossed in the affairs of this life, and not go all out for our King -- who is standing at the door -- ready to judge the living and the dead -- and usher in our eternal dwelling! It is quite reasonable, nay, sane to be a fanatic, if you believe the end is at hand. Some scriptures to investigate, if you so desire: 1 Jn. 2:17-18; Rev. 1:3; 1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 10:36-37; Jas. 5:8,9; 1 Pet. 4:7, etc. The modern day "radical Christian" echoes this fanaticism and instead focuses on the brevity of life (and the radical commands) as opposed to the imminent return of Christ.

[NorrinRadd]

Whether we call them "contradictions" or "disparate voices," Scrawly is making excellent points. Why dismiss them so high-handedly, as if reconciling the diverse passages of Scripture is some trivial matter?

[NorrinRadd]

In the vast majority of cases, the "will of God," in the sense of "What should I do and how should I behave in this situation?" is covered by "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Treat others as you wish others to treat you."

I've heard some believers opine along the lines that the only way God "speaks" to us today is through Scripture. (I've sometimes heard the expression, "propositional statements of Scripture," or something close to that.) That's the kind of incorrect (or at least incomplete) understanding that, in the case of a questionable personal character, can lead to Joy Behar-type mockery.

Others have beaten me to the punch in pointing out places such as Acts 15:28 and 16:6, where believers got some sort of direct guidance. In a few of his books, such as Gift and Giver -- The Holy Spirit for Today, Keener shares some interesting personal anecdotes of being led by the Spirit.