Originally posted by JimL
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt's literally impossible for God to "murder" the innocent, because that implies that there are times when God would not be justified in taking the life of one of His created beings. Whether God has the right to take the life of someone has absolutely no bearing what so ever on whether we have that right or not.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostREALLY bad at this - you are now assuming all death is punishment for specific sins - which is not Biblical nor rational. The wage of sin is death - and no one is without sin - so there is no sin issue here. God, CREATOR of the UNIVERSE and all LIFE therein, OWNS IT ALL. He has every right to take back that He has granted - there is no injustice in God exercising His own rights!
When the elderly die after a long life, God is not being unjust. When a baby dies in the womb, God is not being unjust. God alone has the right to take back the lives He has given - He is not transferring ownership - it's all still His!
You really, really, should stop - the argument you are making is much more dangerous to islam than it is to Christianity. It backs you into the corner of saying that allah has no right to take life - yet he clearly does take life. So, by your logic, allah is unjust - you really don't want to go there, do you?
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostYour argument here lacks support from the Bible. However, I quoted you Hebrews 6:10 that God is just, 2 Kings 14:6 that God commanded "the son shall not bear the sin of the father. Every one is to die for his own sin" and 1 Samuel 15:3 that God order to kill infants and Ezk 9:6 that God ordered to kill children.
Psalm 103:19 ESV
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Romans 9:21 ESV
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Need more?
God's Sovereignty
Source for all of the above."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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And God will one day bring everyone back to life. He can take anyone home when He wants and ban anyone when He wants. Because it is His Universe and we are His creaturesOn a
On a different note, why does it sound better to say God will one day take me home than mention death?Last edited by Christianbookworm; 08-04-2019, 01:33 PM.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostIt is not true because Exodus 12:29 says "At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well."Last edited by JonathanL; 08-04-2019, 01:43 PM.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostGod has attributes in the Bible. One of his attributes is just according to Hebrews 6:10. So how can God be just and command to kill infants in 1 Samuel 15:3? God cannot be just and order to infants.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, we are all in the same boat, all sinners as you say, therefore to arbitrarily murder is logically unjust.
Also, God isn't human and hasn't sinned. He's the standard."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSure, but God cannot murder - you can't steal from yourself. It's logically impossible - God has the right to take life (as owner and lender), ergo He is never unjust in so doing.
Also, God isn't human and hasn't sinned. He's the standard.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostTheft is not murder, Tea, and you may not be able to steal what you own, but you can always destroy/murder what you own. And having the right, isn't what determines justice from injustice.
Also, God cannot murder - humans cannot own another life (yes, Scripture makes one exception - which is not applicable to our discussion since that, too, would not be murder and it can't happen in the US legally anyway) BUT God can and does. Literally, it's His - there's no bill of sale anywhere that transfers God's proprietary right to the Universe, including the life in it. He made it - it's His. Reclaiming His property is not unjust, nor is it murder."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostEr, Jim, think this through - name an instance where someone has the right to do something and is behaving unjustly in doing that thing. And bear in mind, if the right is limited, then acting outside that limit means they no longer have the right. FYI: God's rights are not limited by human constraints.
Also, God cannot murder - humans cannot own another life (yes, Scripture makes one exception - which is not applicable to our discussion since that, too, would not be murder and it can't happen in the US legally anyway) BUT God can and does. Literally, it's His - there's no bill of sale anywhere that transfers God's proprietary right to the Universe, including the life in it. He made it - it's His. Reclaiming His property is not unjust, nor is it murder.
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God is the objective moral standard! And existance. Not the Universe, but the reason for anything to exist. And He would never do something that would be against His character. Because He doesn't want to.Last edited by Christianbookworm; 08-05-2019, 11:15 AM.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThen what you are arguing is that there is no objective moral standard. Unless the god to whom morality is attributed to by the religious, is by his/her/it's nature, bound by that nature, then morality isn't an objective standard. You speak of human beings as if they are just toys for god to play with, to do with as he will regardless of the pain and suffering caused. That is the definition of an immoral god, not a god with a morally good nature.
But the real problem is SH is misunderstanding what death is - he's assuming all death is the same as destruction. It's not. Since no one is untouched by sin, his literalist rendering fails. Since he isn't very good at this, I've pretty much kept to that line. But the difference is significant.
If God destroyed the innocent - in contravention of His own rules - THEN you'd have a basis for this argument. But no where in Scripture is that the case. Death is often used poetically as destruction but it's the latter, not the former, that is punitive. Death in this life is almost more metaphor for the coming destruction than it is actual death. Jesus hints at this when He tells us to 'fear the One Who can destroy both body and spirit in Hell'. All have sinned. All will experience death (well, excepting Elijah and anyone present at the Rapture!). But NOT all will experience destruction in Hell (yes, this is the basis for annhilism). It's that final 'death' that is to be feared - and which is linked directly to guilt or innocence."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLet's wait to see what his defense is first. He may only be guilty of not explaining himself well.
One of the mods asked me to explain myself. So I did, in nauseating detail. If a nauseatingly long defence is wanted. I will endeavour to give satisfaction
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