Innerancy.

[Same Hakeem]

I doubt you will get an answer to your question. He just spams and when his questions are answered he moves on to the next one. I don't think he understands what a monologue is to be honest.

This question relates to Islam. I am here discussing if the Bible errs only.

[Same Hakeem]

You have already been addressed in the other forum. Why you feel the need to keep spamming and once we have answered your questions you continue to just move on to the next point is beyond me. Quit being an idiot and btw the way you still have failed to answer Sparkle's that you have been asked numerous times.

I want to hear others views as well.

[JonathanL]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...2&version=NKJVhttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage...24&version=NLT

You can either

1. Argue that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are both Joseph's and therefore Jesus couldn't have been a physical descendant of David since Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father,

or

2. Argue that the prophecy about the descendants of Jeconiah never sitting on the throne of David is falsified if Jesus sits upon the throne of David.


You cannot argue both at the same time without contradicting yourself.

-----

But even if we ignore the way you blatantly contradict yourself, there are a few things we can note about the "prophecy". One is that it says that "a man who shall not prosper in his days", which seems to limit the "curse" to Jeconiah's own lifetime and the immediate future, and doesn't say anything about any descendants far off in the future after Jeconiah has died:



The above citation was copied from the following article: http://christianthinktank.com/fabprof4.html

And regardless of whether the curse was for the immediate future (so that Jeconiah wouldn't get to experience any of his descendants sitting on the throne), or for an indefinite period of time, Haggai 2:22-23 proves either that the curse was indeed only applicable to Jeconiah's immediate descendants, or that God rescinded the curse for some reason (and rabbinical tradition seems to teach that the curse was rescinded because Jeconiah repented in prison*) because it states:

Scripture Verse: Haggai 2:22-23 ESV

22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms. I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.

© Copyright Original Source

Which when we compare it with Jeremiah 22:24-25 shows something interesting:

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 22:24-25 ESV

though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on my right hand, yet I would tear you off 25 and give you into the hand of those who seek your life, into the hand of those of whom you are afraid, even into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and into the hand of the Chaldeans.

© Copyright Original Source

In other words, Jeconiah was the signet ring that the Lord "tore off" from His hand and gave up to Nebuchadnezzar. But Zerubbabel, who was Jeconiah's grandson, was "reinstated" as God's signet ring, thus showing that the curse, for whatever reason, wasn't applicable any more, either because it was outside of the applicable time frame, or because it had been rescinded for some reason.







*

Source: Judaica Books of the Prophets, in loc

"for no man of his seed shall prosper -In this, too, no man of his seed shall prosper, namely that no one will occupy the throne of David nor rule in Judah. Although we find that Zerubbabel, his great grandson, did rule over Judah upon the return of the exiles, the Rabbis (Pesikta /'Rav Kahana p. 163a) state that this : 'was because Jehoiachin repented in prison. They state further: Repentance is great, for it nullifies a person's sentence, as it is stated: inscribe this man childless.' But since he repented, his sentence was revoked and turned to the good, and he said to him, "I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you a signet" (Haggai 2:23). They state further: Said Rabbi Johanan: Exile expiates all sins, as it is said: Inscribe this man childless," and after he was exiled, it IS written: '(I Chron. 3:17) And the sons of Jeconiah, Assir, Shealtiel his son--Redak"

© Copyright Original Source

Citation copied from the same article as the other citation above.

[Same Hakeem]

You can either

1. Argue that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are both Joseph's and therefore Jesus couldn't have been a physical descendant of David since Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father,

or

2. Argue that the prophecy about the descendants of Jeconiah never sitting on the throne of David is falsified if Jesus sits upon the throne of David.


You cannot argue both at the same time without contradicting yourself.

-----

But even if we ignore the way you blatantly contradict yourself, there are a few things we can note about the "prophecy". One is that it says that "a man who shall not prosper in his days", which seems to limit the "curse" to Jeconiah's own lifetime and the immediate future, and doesn't say anything about any descendants far off in the future after Jeconiah has died:



The above citation was copied from the following article: http://christianthinktank.com/fabprof4.html

And regardless of whether the curse was for the immediate future (so that Jeconiah wouldn't get to experience any of his descendants sitting on the throne), or for an indefinite period of time, Haggai 2:22-23 proves either that the curse was indeed only applicable to Jeconiah's immediate descendants, or that God rescinded the curse for some reason (and rabbinical tradition seems to teach that the curse was rescinded because Jeconiah repented in prison*) because it states:

Scripture Verse: Haggai 2:22-23 ESV

22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms. I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.

© Copyright Original Source

Which when we compare it with Jeremiah 22:24-25 shows something interesting:

Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 22:24-25 ESV

though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on my right hand, yet I would tear you off 25 and give you into the hand of those who seek your life, into the hand of those of whom you are afraid, even into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and into the hand of the Chaldeans.

© Copyright Original Source

In other words, Jeconiah was the signet ring that the Lord "tore off" from His hand and gave up to Nebuchadnezzar. But Zerubbabel, who was Jeconiah's grandson, was "reinstated" as God's signet ring, thus showing that the curse, for whatever reason, wasn't applicable any more, either because it was outside of the applicable time frame, or because it had been rescinded for some reason.







*

Source: Judaica Books of the Prophets, in loc

"for no man of his seed shall prosper -In this, too, no man of his seed shall prosper, namely that no one will occupy the throne of David nor rule in Judah. Although we find that Zerubbabel, his great grandson, did rule over Judah upon the return of the exiles, the Rabbis (Pesikta /'Rav Kahana p. 163a) state that this : 'was because Jehoiachin repented in prison. They state further: Repentance is great, for it nullifies a person's sentence, as it is stated: inscribe this man childless.' But since he repented, his sentence was revoked and turned to the good, and he said to him, "I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you a signet" (Haggai 2:23). They state further: Said Rabbi Johanan: Exile expiates all sins, as it is said: Inscribe this man childless," and after he was exiled, it IS written: '(I Chron. 3:17) And the sons of Jeconiah, Assir, Shealtiel his son--Redak"

© Copyright Original Source

Citation copied from the same article as the other citation above.

Between 1 and 2, ff course. 1. Since both genealogies in Matthew and Luke trace Jesus back to David namely through Joseph according to Luke 3:23 and Matthew 1:16. Since Joseph was not biological father of Jesus, Jesus cannot be traced back to David in Matthew and Luke in light of the fact that Jesus was born without a father.

[ReformedApologist]

Between 1 and 2, ff course. 1. Since both genealogies in Matthew and Luke trace Jesus back to David namely through Joseph according to Luke 3:23 and Matthew 1:16. Since Joseph was not biological father of Jesus, Jesus cannot be traced back to David in Matthew and Luke in light of the fact that Jesus was born without a father.

Are you really this dense? Jesus is Joseph's son by adoption and given Moses and Esther were adopted in the Old Testament it is not unlikely he was adopted legally by Joseph while having Mary as his mother. And I know you will throw up Romans 1:3 which has also been addressed.

[JonathanL]

Between 1 and 2, ff course. 1. Since both genealogies in Matthew and Luke trace Jesus back to David namely through Joseph according to Luke 3:23 and Matthew 1:16. Since Joseph was not biological father of Jesus, Jesus cannot be traced back to David in Matthew and Luke in light of the fact that Jesus was born without a father.

Again, Jesus can be traced back to David via his mother, as which I showed in the other thread where I cited the passage from Numbers 27 about the daughters of Zelophehad.

[Apologiaphoenix]

You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.

[ReformedApologist]

You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.

It seems to me he has an agenda. After all he never answered the questions brought towards him.He wants a monologue with answers that fit his presuppositions. Is this a typical Muslim tactic?

[Cow Poke]

You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.

bacon

[JonathanL]

You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.

Nah, I think this is fine actually. Even if Same himself doesn't actually learn anything from this it's still a fact that I myself have refreshed my memory on these issues, and it will be easier for me to remember the information, or at the very least where to find it, the next time I find myself in a situation where it's pertinent. And that's not to mention any potential lurkers who might stumble upon this thread and learn something from the discussion.

[Apologiaphoenix]

It seems to me he has an agenda. After all he never answered the questions brought towards him.He wants a monologue with answers that fit his presuppositions. Is this a typical Muslim tactic?

Yes

[Apologiaphoenix]

Nah, I think this is fine actually. Even if Same himself doesn't actually learn anything from this it's still a fact that I myself have refreshed my memory on these issues, and it will be easier for me to remember the information, or at the very least where to find it, the next time I find myself in a situation where it's pertinent. And that's not to mention any potential lurkers who might stumble upon this thread and learn something from the discussion.

I have no problem with that. I would just encourage you to make sure it's not a major priority and you're not giving him more time than he deserves. He obviously doesn't care about research and having accurate data.

[Cow Poke]

Nah, I think this is fine actually. Even if Same himself doesn't actually learn anything from this it's still a fact that I myself have refreshed my memory on these issues, and it will be easier for me to remember the information, or at the very least where to find it, the next time I find myself in a situation where it's pertinent. And that's not to mention any potential lurkers who might stumble upon this thread and learn something from the discussion.

And you're a good man for putting it out there. Even if you do have blue hair.

[JonathanL]

I have no problem with that. I would just encourage you to make sure it's not a major priority and you're not giving him more time than he deserves. He obviously doesn't care about research and having accurate data.

If I'm to be completely honest I'm mostly doing this as a way to motivate myself to do study and research for my own edification, rather than for Same's benefit, because he has clearly shown he's not in the least bit interested in learning anything.

[JonathanL]

And you're a good man for putting it out there. Even if you do have blue hair.

So, which one of the horses in your avatar picture are you then?