You Hate Me! You Really Hate Me!

[Starlight]

You keep using this lame etymological fallacy argument every time the meaning of the word "homophobia" is brought up, and you're just plain wrong.

~sigh~ No. You're completely and utterly wrong. The remainder of your post is ridiculous non-sequiters.

As your second citation makes clear, the word "homophobia" is widely used by people to mean what the writers of the paper label "homonegativity".

Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/

Homophobes should consider a little self-reflection, suggests a new study finding those individuals who are most hostile toward gays and hold strong anti-gay views may themselves have same-sex desires, albeit undercover ones. . . .

The research, published in the April 2012 issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, reveals the nuances of prejudices like homophobia, which can ultimately have dire consequences.

"Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much,'" Ryan told LiveScience. "In addition, it appears that sometimes those who would oppress others have been oppressed themselves, and we can have some compassion for them too, they may be unaccepting of others because they cannot be accepting of themselves."

Ryan cautioned, however, that this link is only one source of anti-gay sentiments.

© Copyright Original Source

There have been ongoing scandals for decades now, where the people who are most publicly vocal about the evils of homosexuality repeatedly turn out to be gay themselves. This psychological phenomenon has been scientifically studied, and confirmed. People have a tendency to externalize their internal struggles, so if they are struggling daily in their personal life with gay urges, this often manifests itself in public as aggression and virulence toward gay people.

ie Those who are the most "homonegative", who speak out the most virulently against gay people, are statistically quite likely to actually be gay themselves. And that is what your citation is saying.

For scientific purposes, these guys wanted to define two separate terms: "homophobia" and "homonegativism". That's fine, they're doing science and they need some specific technical terms. But as they point out, in everyday life people blur those terms together, and the way they are choosing to use the terms in the paper is not usual.

What I've been telling you guys is that in common use the English word "homophobia" is used to mean "homonegativism". If God were to snap his fingers and replace the word "homophobia" around the world with "homonegativism", then life would go on as normal and no gay people would notice the difference because they already use the word as if it meant that anyway.

Yup.

Stop acting like people don't use the word "homophobia" in the same sense as other phobias,

I've yet to see any gay people ever use the word in such a manner.

The word's power as an insult or as a way to shut down conversation comes precisely from its literal meaning.

I suggest you use your brain and when you hear the word "homophobia" mentally translate it to "homonegativism" and that this will help you understand the meaning that he speaker is using it with. Hopefully you will stop throwing bizarre and childish tantrums about the word as a result.

As I have mentioned before, I personally just tend to use the phrase "anti-gay" precisely because I know that many Christians do not understand the word "homophobia" and guess wrong about what it means. I am fine with "homonegative" as an alternative, but "anti-gay" seems simpler to me.

[Starlight]

Adrift has answered you on this.

Here's an idea for you: Next time that someone calls you a "homophobe" or uses the term "homophobia", actually ask them about what they mean and what they think they are trying to imply. Instead of putting your own assumptions into the term, actually ask the person who's using it.

Ask them if they mean "anti-gay" or "homonegative", or whether they are actually intentionally claiming that you have a literal fear of gay people. Instead of making your own assumptions, actually ask the user of the word about what they mean.

Evidence?

Two Spirited people

There's also some good work here by some African anthropologists, who have collected together what all the earliest European explorers to Africa wrote about the cultures they encountered, and they look at how 21 different African cultures treated homosexuality. 11 of them had some kind of tradition of same-sex marriage.

In other words "Shut up."

Sure. As my mother once taught me, "if you've got nothing good to say about someone, then don't say it".

You see, a few years ago, we were told tolerance was a virtue and we should celebrate diversity and be open to other views.

Some key words in there include "tolerance" and "celebrate diversity". I'm not sure how you perceive your very negative attitude to homosexuality as being part of tolerance or celebrating diversity.

Now that homosexuality has received approval, this is no longer the good news. Now it's "shut up."

It seems to me you're being asked to partake in tolerance. Your refusal to do that is making people tell you to shut up.

Again, why should I celebrate and/or endorse homosexual behavior?

Because you want to cause them positive health outcomes / not cause massively negative ones.

Do you also think it's proper for someone to make their total identity be based on who they sleep with?

You overstate this, it's not "total identity". Their "total identity" might be something like "a white, gay, ex-marine, atheist, English-speaking, male, in my 30s, from the US".

If someone tells me they don't approve of my relationship with my wife, I move on.

If only one person does it, sure. But if hundreds, and thousands of people start doing it? If you get kicked out of your church because of it? If the government bans your relationship by law?

Social discrimination isn't about one person saying one nasty thing once. Gay people aren't somehow so thin-skinned that they can't take a single negative thing said to them once in their entire lives. Social discrimination is about lots of people saying nasty things regularly and constantly. It's about ensuring someone knows that there is widespread social disapproval with them and their actions. It's about making them feel like a social outcast. It's about kicking them out of groups and organisations they would have otherwise been members of. It's about using the law against them.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Here's an idea for you: Next time that someone calls you a "homophobe" or uses the term "homophobia", actually ask them about what they mean and what they think they are trying to imply. Instead of putting your own assumptions into the term, actually ask the person who's using it.

Here's a better idea. If you mean something other than a phobia, say some word other than phobia. Adrift showed you where this is used and you still said you never see it used that way.

Ask them if they mean "anti-gay" or "homonegative", or whether they are actually intentionally claiming that you have a literal fear of gay people. Instead of making your own assumptions, actually ask the user of the word about what they mean.

Except when it's a written work such as an article being responded to, one can't do that. I went by what I saw in the article.

Two Spirited people

Yeah. Heard this one before. How that leads to this meaning these people married each other or that this was any widespread opinion I would have to see more on.

There's also some good work here by some African anthropologists, who have collected together what all the earliest European explorers to Africa wrote about the cultures they encountered, and they look at how 21 different African cultures treated homosexuality. 11 of them had some kind of tradition of same-sex marriage.

They claim to base this on some writings going back in the past. Got any of these? Any clear references or examples?

Sure. As my mother once taught me, "if you've got nothing good to say about someone, then don't say it".

It's a shame you keep speaking then.

Some key words in there include "tolerance" and "celebrate diversity". I'm not sure how you perceive your very negative attitude to homosexuality as being part of tolerance or celebrating diversity.

It seems to me you're being asked to partake in tolerance. Your refusal to do that is making people tell you to shut up.

I'll wait and let the irony of these two statements sink in.

Because you want to cause them positive health outcomes / not cause massively negative ones.

If I think homosexual behavior is harmful, then I'm causing them harm in the long run by not telling them. Again, this is not a real reason. Let's talk about the behavior itself. You're confusing the behavior with the person.

You overstate this, it's not "total identity". Their "total identity" might be something like "a white, gay, ex-marine, atheist, English-speaking, male, in my 30s, from the US".

No. I don't. A person uses a term and has pride in it to celebrate that this is something that they identify themselves with. There are many more facets to a human being than that and if a person can't take disagreement, there is much more going on.

If only one person does it, sure. But if hundreds, and thousands of people start doing it? If you get kicked out of your church because of it? If the government bans your relationship by law?

Yeah. I don't need the approval of my society to know what a marriage is.

Social discrimination isn't about one person saying one nasty thing once. Gay people aren't somehow so thin-skinned that they can't take a single negative thing said to them once in their entire lives. Social discrimination is about lots of people saying nasty things regularly and constantly. It's about ensuring someone knows that there is widespread social disapproval with them and their actions. It's about making them feel like a social outcast. It's about kicking them out of groups and organisations they would have otherwise been members of. It's about using the law against them.

No one can make anyone feel anything. How you feel is a choice. If we could, we'd make ourselves all feel happy. If you want to talk about using the law, let's look at what happens to businesses like Sweet Cakes by Melissa or Memories pizza. The law is brought in. The law is being the strongarm of the homosexual movement to bludgeon those who disagree with them when they used to speak about tolerance.

It was a sham and it always has been.

[Adrift]

~sigh~ No. You're completely and utterly wrong. The remainder of your post is ridiculous non-sequiters.

As your second citation makes clear, the word "homophobia" is widely used by people to mean what the writers of the paper label "homonegativity".

There have been ongoing scandals for decades now, where the people who are most publicly vocal about the evils of homosexuality repeatedly turn out to be gay themselves. This psychological phenomenon has been scientifically studied, and confirmed. People have a tendency to externalize their internal struggles, so if they are struggling daily in their personal life with gay urges, this often manifests itself in public as aggression and virulence toward gay people.

ie Those who are the most "homonegative", who speak out the most virulently against gay people, are statistically quite likely to actually be gay themselves. And that is what your citation is saying.

For scientific purposes, these guys wanted to define two separate terms: "homophobia" and "homonegativism". That's fine, they're doing science and they need some specific technical terms. But as they point out, in everyday life people blur those terms together, and the way they are choosing to use the terms in the paper is not usual.

What I've been telling you guys is that in common use the English word "homophobia" is used to mean "homonegativism". If God were to snap his fingers and replace the word "homophobia" around the world with "homonegativism", then life would go on as normal and no gay people would notice the difference because they already use the word as if it meant that anyway.

Yup.

I've yet to see any gay people ever use the word in such a manner.

I suggest you use your brain and when you hear the word "homophobia" mentally translate it to "homonegativism" and that this will help you understand the meaning that he speaker is using it with. Hopefully you will stop throwing bizarre and childish tantrums about the word as a result.

As I have mentioned before, I personally just tend to use the phrase "anti-gay" precisely because I know that many Christians do not understand the word "homophobia" and guess wrong about what it means. I am fine with "homonegative" as an alternative, but "anti-gay" seems simpler to me.

Listen Starlight. No one is buying your apologetic. No one. I've already refuted it by showing that it is, in fact, used precisely in the way I've said it's used. I have about a dozen close gay friends, and gay family members. This is not some foreign concept to me. Whenever they, or our straight friends and acquaintances use it (and no, I've never been called it by them), they certainly do have in mind, or are at least somewhat implying, that the person who is the object of the insult is (consciously or unconsciously) afraid of homosexuality. Of catching something from homosexuals, or of being secretly homosexual themselves, or having some other irrational fear of homosexuality. That is where the bite and sting and the assumed truth of the insult comes from. The idea that some people are deep down irrationally fearful or mistrustful of homosexuals and homosexuality.

Maybe it's different in NZ. Maybe people put on a happy face, and mean nothing at all by the word "homophobic" but a stern finger wagging to those who have a strong, but rational and perhaps well thought out difference of opinion about homosexuality. But I highly doubt that. It's far more likely that, just like so many other topics on this forum, you're simply out of your depth, and you have no idea what you're talking about. Or maybe you're just desperate to downplay something you know for a fact isn't true. Either way, you're still wrong.

[Starlight]

If you mean something other than a phobia, say some word other than phobia.

You can rant and rave about the shortcomings of the English language all you like. But at the end of the day, people use words with certain meanings and it's a misunderstanding on your part if you choose to willfully misinterpret what people are meaning by those words.

Adrift showed you where this is used

No he didn't. His first and third examples were using "homophobia" with its normal "homonegative" meaning. His second example, was scientists using technical terms, and they were very clear that they were not using the word how it was normally used.

and you still said you never see it used that way.

I have talked to lots of gay people, I'd estimate a few hundred or so. I've heard them talk about homophobia a lot, and never once have I heard them use it to mean an actual phobia. They've always used it consistently with a meaning of "anti-gay" or "homonegative".

But, as I said, if you think the people using the word in your direction might be meaning something different, then I suggest you ask them about it.

Except when it's a written work such as an article being responded to, one can't do that. I went by what I saw in the article.

Then post a comment on the article. Or email or tweet at the author, and ask them.

But it doesn't help anyone for you to misinterpret a word in their article, and then go off on a rant about how they're totally wrong about what they meant because you've misunderstood them.

How that leads to this meaning these people married each other or that this was any widespread opinion I would have to see more on.

The native Americans generally had polygamous marriage, and a man could marry multiple wives as well as a two-spirited male husband. There are books and articles on it you can look into if you care enough to google it.

They claim to base this on some writings going back in the past. Got any of these? Any clear references or examples?

You can read the book if you're interested. I didn't take notes when I read it I'm afraid. I managed to find it for free somewhere on the internet and download it to my kindle, so it won't necessarily cost you money to read it.

Another place in Africa, Siwa, not covered in that book, is famous for its acceptance of same sex relationships and marriage up until very recent times. Wikipedia has a decent list of quotes from original sources about homosexuality in Siwa.

I'll wait and let the irony of these two statements sink in.

You willfully misunderstand what other people are meaning when they say "tolerance" and "acceptance" and how those ideas work in their view. I've found such a willful misunderstanding of "tolerance" to be pretty common in Christian circles, unfortunately.

If I think homosexual behavior is harmful, then I'm causing them harm in the long run by not telling them.

So the question becomes, are you causing more harm or benefit by telling them? Medical professionals testify that you cause more harm than benefit in this world.

I guess the eternal consequences of your actions are harder to assess. I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but assuming you're protestant, your view should be that their salvation is dependent on their faith in Jesus alone (or lack of it), and hence whether they have gay sex or not is irrelevant because refraining from it won't save them.

No one can make anyone feel anything.

It statistically averages out with regard to stigmatized groups: Repeated actions taken against a particular minority will gradually cause percentages of that minority group to become stress, depressed, anxious, and suicidal. That's a known and obvious consequence of stigmatizing and bullying people.

Saying essentially "well I'm just the bully punching you, I didn't make you cry, it was you who choose to react by crying" isn't a good excuse. If you insist on doing the social equivalent of repeatedly verbally punching gay people, and lots of others do likewise, some of them are going to eventually start crying.

The law is being the strongarm of the homosexual movement to bludgeon those who disagree with them when they used to speak about tolerance.

It was a sham and it always has been.

I've noticed a big difference in attitudes between gay people in their 60s as compared to gay people in their 20s. The older people tend to be a lot more tolerant of Christians who are anti-gay, and feel that the law should never be used by gay people against Christians in any way. Younger gay people are much more likely to think that the Christians who are being horrible to gay people are getting exactly what they deserve when the law punishes them for it, and think the law is absolutely right to do so. So you've got to bear in mind that different people have different views on this. It's simply that the older generation has much much lower expectations for how nice to gay people they expect the average person to be.

[Starlight]

I have about a dozen close gay friends, and gay family members. This is not some foreign concept to me. Whenever they, or our straight friends and acquaintances use it (and no, I've never been called it by them), they certainly do have in mind, or are at least somewhat implying, that the person who is the object of the insult is (consciously or unconsciously) afraid of homosexuality.

I suggest you actually explicitly ask them about this. Ask them what they think the word means. Ask them if they feel they are implying "fear" as opposed to merely negativity towards homosexuality. I think you'll likely be surprised by their answers. Ask them if they see it more as an insult, or whether they see it as a descriptive term to describe someone who is being anti-gay. Ask them if they think they're implying some sort of deep down pathological and irrational fear of homosexuality by using the word.

Maybe it's different in NZ.

The gay people I have talked to here have been quite international in origins. But I could certainly believe that you might be in a bit of a bubble on the subject, and that the few gay people you happen to know might use the word in a way that is internationally unusual.

It's far more likely that, just like so many other topics on this forum, you're simply out of your depth, and you have no idea what you're talking about.

I love the level of projection that happens on this forum. It's quite funny being told how little I know about everything, how ignorant and uneducated I am, etc.

[Adrift]

No he didn't. His first and third examples were using "homophobia" with its normal "homonegative" meaning. His second example, was scientists using technical terms, and they were very clear that they were not using the word how it was normally used.

What? Who are you trying to fool?

Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/

Homophobes should consider a little self-reflection, suggests a new study finding those individuals who are most hostile toward gays and hold strong anti-gay views may themselves have same-sex desires, albeit undercover ones. . . .

The research, published in the April 2012 issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, reveals the nuances of prejudices like homophobia, which can ultimately have dire consequences.

"Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much,'" Ryan told LiveScience. "In addition, it appears that sometimes those who would oppress others have been oppressed themselves, and we can have some compassion for them too, they may be unaccepting of others because they cannot be accepting of themselves."

Ryan cautioned, however, that this link is only one source of anti-gay sentiments.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: http://elitedaily.com/news/world/homophobic-men-aroused-gay-male-porn-surprised/

including fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort and aversionas an anxiety or anticipatory anxiety elicited by homosexual individualsfear of possibly being or becoming a homosexual. Psychoanalytic theories have long postulated that homophobia may be a result of repressed homosexual urges, or a form of latent homosexuality (homosexual arousal, which the individual is either unaware of or denies).

© Copyright Original Source

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/homophobic-maybe-youre-gay.html?_r=0

WHY are political and religious figures who campaign against gay rights so often implicated in sexual encounters with same-sex partners? . . .

One theory is that homosexual urges, when repressed out of shame or fear

© Copyright Original Source

[Starlight]

Who are you trying to fool?

Your reading comprehension ability is scarily bad. To the point where I have to wonder how you manage in life in general.

Your first and third articles are pointing out that some people who are anti-gay are themselves gay, and the interplay of the two things results in them being really outspoken on the issue and protesting "too much". ie Some homophobic people themselves turn out to be gay. That doesn't mean that the word "homophobe" itself means "a person who is secretly gay".

Your second article is more along the lines of what you are trying to say. It's some scientists who have decided they want to use words in very technical ways, and so have decided to slice out the normal meaning of "homonegativity" from the word "homophobia" and have decided that they want to reserve the word "homophobia" for something very specific. That's fine, they are scientists and can make up their own technical terms for the purposes of that study. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that their specific usage reflects general usage of these words.

[Adrift]

I suggest you actually explicitly ask them about this. Ask them what they think the word means. Ask them if they feel they are implying "fear" as opposed to merely negativity towards homosexuality. I think you'll likely be surprised by their answers. Ask them if they see it more as an insult, or whether they see it as a descriptive term to describe someone who is being anti-gay. Ask them if they think they're implying some sort of deep down pathological and irrational fear of homosexuality by using the word.

I HAVE had discussions with my gay and gay friendly friends and acquaintances about this topic, and they HAVE confirmed what I've been telling you. And, yes, of course they mean it as an insult. When they're flinging half a dozen other cuss words at someone, and they also throw in the word "homophobe", it's an insult. You think people can't tell when someone is insulting someone else?

The gay people I have talked to here have been quite international in origins. But I could certainly believe that you might be in a bit of a bubble on the subject, and that the few gay people you happen to know might use the word in a way that is internationally unusual.

Honestly, I'm having a really hard time taking you seriously right now. What I've been talking about is the norm. It's not something I learned in a bubble. It comes from travels up and down the States, and even overseas. Trust me, you're the one in the bubble.

I love the level of projection that happens on this forum. It's quite funny being told how little I know about everything, how ignorant and uneducated I am, etc.

I'm being straight up with you Starlight. It's not projection. Honestly, it's not. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder, and you think you have the whole world figured out, and you don't, and it's ridiculously obvious to just about everyone else on this forum but you. Again, you're the one in the bubble. You're the one with the weird ideas about all sorts of things that you seem convinced are generally held by everyone else, but they're not. You have a very peculiar set of beliefs, and maybe they're reinforced by the friends you personally associate with or the corners of the web you congregate in, but they're not nearly as widespread as you seem to believe. I mean, you've already told us that you've been burnt by this before. In your deconversion testimony you told of how you were shocked to find that Christians largely held views you thought only represented a minority opinion. We're not talking some small group of people here. We're talking the largest religion in the world. A religion that you yourself believed you were a part of. You were so shocked to find that Christians held these views that you not only deconverted, but have spent countless hours on webforums preaching against it. So, look, you have a history of thinking you know how things really are, and then finding to your surprise that they aren't that way at all. Maybe, just maybe, there are other things you seem certain about that are also not the case. When people tell you that you're totally off, instead of assuming they're projecting, perhaps learn from your own personal history, and really consider that you are.

[Adrift]

Your reading comprehension ability is scarily bad. To the point where I have to wonder how you manage in life in general.

Your first and third articles are pointing out that some people who are anti-gay are themselves gay, and the interplay of the two things results in them being really outspoken on the issue and protesting "too much". ie Some homophobic people themselves turn out to be gay. That doesn't mean that the word "homophobe" itself means "a person who is secretly gay".

Your second article is more along the lines of what you are trying to say. It's some scientists who have decided they want to use words in very technical ways, and so have decided to slice out the normal meaning of "homonegativity" from the word "homophobia" and have decided that they want to reserve the word "homophobia" for something very specific. That's fine, they are scientists and can make up their own technical terms for the purposes of that study. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that their specific usage reflects general usage of these words.

Unbelievable.

[Starlight]

Adrift,

You made me start second guessing myself to the point where I was going to post a question on the subject of the meaning of "homophobia" in two different gay forums and ask for responses. But then I thought, "why not just google it and find existing forum discussions on that topic?". So I did.

They all agreed with me across the board. Here they are. I've supplied short extracts of some of the best-ranked answers:

(Bad Language Warning in linked forums!)
Why is "homophobia" the term for hatred of homosexuals, rather than fear of homosexuals?When did the definition of homophobia change? (WordReference)
"When it came time to coin a word for anti-homosexual sentiment, "homophobia" was, semantically, lying virtually idle on the floor of the word-shop, waiting to be picked up and resupplied with meaning. Yes, phobia meant fear, but no other well-known Greek root for an aversion seemed available. Purists like you and me can fume all we want, but language belongs to people who are, in their majority, non-purists."
Why doesn't the word homophobia mean fear of gay people (Reddit, r/NoStupidQuestions)
"You're confusing the suffix phobia with clinical phobias. ...phobia as a suffix can mean aversion, hatred, repulsion, fear. The word phobia on its own is more specific."
Is there no better substitute for the word "homophobic"? Just because somebody doesn't like gay people or insults them, doesn't mean they're scared of them. Why does the word we use imply fear? (Reddit, r/NoStupidQuestions)
"The suffix "phobic" doesn't just imply fear. It is also used to describe aversion - e.g., a hydrophobic surface isn't "afraid" of water, it just repels it. It can also mean hate, dislike, contempt, aversion, etc."
Word for hating homosexuals that's not homophobia (Reddit, r/WhatsTheWord)
"The -phobia suffix isn't used exclusively for fears, sometimes it is used to mean repulsion (e.g. hydrophobe)"
"From a linguistic perspective...word meaning is not derived from an etymological sum. Word meaning comes from one place, and one place only: Usage. The usage of this word has given it a very clear and exclusive meaning, such that if you were to use it to mean "fear" in the same way as, say, Arachnophobia, your meaning would almost certainly be lost."
Why do we say homophobia and not homoism, like we do for sexism/racism/ageism? (Reddit r/answers)
"The short answer is that we sort of misuse those other terms. The longer answer is that it really doesn't matter, since there are no really strict rules."
Shouldn't homophobia mean "fear of humans"? (Reddit r/NoStupidQuestions)
"English words do not always have their etymological meanings. For example, "awful" no longer means "full of awe", and "terrific" no longer means "inspiring terror". We make words that mean what we want them to mean."
ELI5: Why doesn't 'homophobia' mean 'a fear of things that are the same'? Shouldn't it be 'homosexualphobia' or 'orientationism'? (Reddit r/ExplainLikeImFive)
"Homophobia is more just colloquially developed, its not like some linguistically derived term, it's more like 'Chocoholic' it makes no sense."
"the meanings of compound words are not generally predictable from the meanings of the parts... Your expectation that a word should mean what the combination of its parts mean just doesn't hold up to evidence."
ReligiousTolerance.org also has an essay on the meaning to help people understanding it. Meanings of the words: homophobe & homophobia.
They explain it can refer to the "full range of people's negative beliefs and actions about individuals of minority sexual orientations and sexual behaviors."
(Bad Language Warning in linked forums!)

Also I discovered that homophobia originally meant "fear of humans" (as in homo-sapiens) when it was first coined.

Anyway, that's the forum threads I found around the internet discussing the meaning of "homophobia". They all agree with me. None agree with you. So suck it. I didn't filter those in any way, they were merely the first ones I came across when I searched for threads on the topic. If you want to do your own web search and find threads on the subject, be my guest. But as far as I can see, the internet is absolutely unanimous in thinking that you're wrong and I'm right on this.

[Adrift]

Adrift,

You made me start second guessing myself to the point where I was going to post a question on the subject of the meaning of "homophobia" in two different gay forums and ask for responses. But then I thought, "why not just google it and find existing forum discussions on that topic?". So I did.

They all agreed with me across the board. Here they are. I've supplied short extracts of some of the best-ranked answers:

(Bad Language Warning in linked forums!)
Why is "homophobia" the term for hatred of homosexuals, rather than fear of homosexuals?When did the definition of homophobia change? (WordReference)
"When it came time to coin a word for anti-homosexual sentiment, "homophobia" was, semantically, lying virtually idle on the floor of the word-shop, waiting to be picked up and resupplied with meaning. Yes, phobia meant fear, but no other well-known Greek root for an aversion seemed available. Purists like you and me can fume all we want, but language belongs to people who are, in their majority, non-purists."
Why doesn't the word homophobia mean fear of gay people (Reddit, r/NoStupidQuestions)
"You're confusing the suffix phobia with clinical phobias. ...phobia as a suffix can mean aversion, hatred, repulsion, fear. The word phobia on its own is more specific."
Is there no better substitute for the word "homophobic"? Just because somebody doesn't like gay people or insults them, doesn't mean they're scared of them. Why does the word we use imply fear? (Reddit, r/NoStupidQuestions)
"The suffix "phobic" doesn't just imply fear. It is also used to describe aversion - e.g., a hydrophobic surface isn't "afraid" of water, it just repels it. It can also mean hate, dislike, contempt, aversion, etc."
Word for hating homosexuals that's not homophobia (Reddit, r/WhatsTheWord)
"The -phobia suffix isn't used exclusively for fears, sometimes it is used to mean repulsion (e.g. hydrophobe)"
"From a linguistic perspective...word meaning is not derived from an etymological sum. Word meaning comes from one place, and one place only: Usage. The usage of this word has given it a very clear and exclusive meaning, such that if you were to use it to mean "fear" in the same way as, say, Arachnophobia, your meaning would almost certainly be lost."
Why do we say homophobia and not homoism, like we do for sexism/racism/ageism? (Reddit r/answers)
"The short answer is that we sort of misuse those other terms. The longer answer is that it really doesn't matter, since there are no really strict rules."
Shouldn't homophobia mean "fear of humans"? (Reddit r/NoStudidQuestions)
"English words do not always have their etymological meanings. For example, "awful" no longer means "full of awe", and "terrific" no longer means "inspiring terror". We make words that mean what we want them to mean."
ELI5: Why doesn't 'homophobia' mean 'a fear of things that are the same'? Shouldn't it be 'homosexualphobia' or 'orientationism'? (Reddit r/ExplainLikeImFive)
"Homophobia is more just colloquially developed, its not like some linguistically derived term, it's more like 'Chocoholic' it makes no sense."
"the meanings of compound words are not generally predictable from the meanings of the parts... Your expectation that a word should mean what the combination of its parts mean just doesn't hold up to evidence."
ReligiousTolerance.org also has an essay on the meaning to help people understanding it. Meanings of the words:
homophobe & homophobia.
They explain it can refer to the "full range of people's negative beliefs and actions about individuals of minority sexual orientations and sexual behaviors."
(Bad Language Warning in linked forums!)

Also I discovered that homophobia originally meant "fear of humans" (as in homo-sapiens) when it was first coined.

Anyway, that's the dozen or so forum threads I found around the internet discussing the meaning of "homophobia". They all agree with me. None agree with you. So suck it. I didn't filter those in any way, they were merely the first ones I came across when I searched for threads on the topic. If you want to do your own web search and find threads on the subject, be my guest. But as far as I can see, the internet is absolutely unanimous in thinking that you're wrong and I'm right on this.

Oh my lord. You are so freaking petty.

Why are people afraid of homosexuals? (Quora)
"Being homophobic (afraid of homosexuals) is actually a wrong term for homophobes do not fear homosexuals they fear society, people around them, kins, etc. They're afraid to a point that finding out that someone in their circle is gay they have this pathetic fear (almost to a sweating state) that others may suspect gayness in them. That's why they fear homosexuals."

Men and the Fear of HomosexualityHomophobia, Sexual Prejudice Driven By Fear Of Unwanted Sexual Advances By Gays, Lesbians: Study (Huffington Post)
"The complicated psychology of prejudice is something researchers struggle with continuously. Often, racism or homophobia is understood to be motivated by a variety of factors. Now, a report says sexual prejudice in particular may be strongly related to a deep-seated fear of being hit on by a member of the same sex."

Homophobia (Urban Dictionary)
"The fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women."

What is homophobia? (stop-homophobia.com)
"The word homophobia comes from the Greek 'homo' (meaning 'same') and 'phobia' (meaning 'fear'). It is used to describe a fear or a negative attitude towards gay people. . . . It may be comforting to know that the majority of homophobes act out of ignorance and fear. Often it's a question of immaturity. . . . Homophobia is the irrational hatred, intolerance, and fear of lesbian, gay and bisexual people."

Homophobia (Anti-Defamation League)
"Homophobia is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility."

ELI5: Why doesn't 'homophobia' mean 'a fear of things that are the same'? Shouldn't it be 'homosexualphobia' or 'orientationism'? And why is 'feminism' positive but 'racism' negative? (Reddit)
"I've always considered homophobia as an irrational fear of homosexuals. That's basically what it is. I'm sure if you used "homocist" in a sentence, you'd still get your point across though."

I see homophobia as a form of toxic masculinity that hurts both gay and straight men. (Reddit)
"I believe the term is toxic masculinity and I agree one of the big examples is homophobia and the fear of men being seen as feminine. This leads to the classic problems of men finding it difficult to express emotion/feelings out of the fear of being perceived as less manly."

GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Lesbian / Gay / Bisexual Glossary Of Terms (GLAAD)
Homophobia - Fear of lesbians and gay men. Intolerance or prejudice is usually a more accurate description of antipathy toward LGBT people.

LGBT e-Safety Forum Quiz (LGBT Safety)
"What Is Homophobia - is the irrational hatred, intolerance, and fear of lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people. These negative feelings fuel the myths, stereotypes, and discrimination that can lead to violence against LGB people"

Homophobia (New Zealand Post Primary Teachers' Association)
"Homophobia is the fear or loathing of homosexuality. It is often based on what an individual believes to be an appropriate masculine/feminine role."

Starlight, you're in denial. All it takes is one or two examples (as I demonstrated in my first post) to utterly refute your theory that "homophobia/homophobic" has absolutely no connection to it's etymology in its modern or regular usage. Stop with your "it's an etymological fallacy" argument. It's absolutely and demonstrably false.

[Starlight]

Okay, let's be clear. What we're arguing about is how wide the term homophobia is in scope, and whether it is confined in meaning to merely "fear" as if it were a literal "phobia", or whether it can and does regularly and normally mean a much more generalized opposition to homosexuality not necessarily motivated out of fear. Particularly we want to know how gay people themselves tend to use it, because I am alleging that Nick has misunderstood its general use when he reads comments by gay people about others being homophobic, and interprets that as alleging he is afraid of them.

It's not at all surprising that given the entire internet to work with, you are able to dig up selective examples of individual people and articles who think that homophobia is about "fear". But the reason I looked at forums, especially those that can have up/down votes on posts, is that it gives a more general picture of what most people think it means. So you re-citing one of my reddit links and then reproducing one of the least-up-voted posts from it, is not very convincing.

You also don't appear to have spotted the tongue-in-cheek nature of Urban Dictionary's definition that you cited.

For what it's worth, I have created a poll in a gay online group asking them about the meaning. I gave some options, but the poll also allowed them to define their own meaning if they wished. After 3 hours so far, a meaning of "any kind of opposition to homosexuality" is winning at around an 8:1 ratio over a meaning of "fear of gay people". But I will grant that it seems there are genuinely some gay people out there, albeit only ~12% or so, who do actually think it carries a narrower meaning of "fear" of gay people. So it looks like about 88% of gay people prefer my wide definition and about 12% prefer your narrow definition.

I also note that some of your quoted sites are very clearly endorsing a very wide definition of homophobia that includes much more than merely 'fear':

Men and the Fear of Homosexualityhatred, hostility or disapproval of LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender) people, or of perceived LGBT lifestyles, sexual behavior or cultures,fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals, the reasons for these negative feelingshomophobia is often classed with other intolerant prejudicial attitudes such as racism and sexism. Essentially, it is the denial of the rights of others to pursue meaning and fulfilment in their lives as they see fit."

LGBT e-Safety Forum Quiz (LGBT Safety)
"What Is Homophobia - is the irrational hatred, intolerance, and fear of lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people. These negative feelings fuel the myths, stereotypes, and discrimination that can lead to violence against LGB people"

As those definitions imply, any form of disapproval of, discrimination against, or intolerance of homosexuality, is counted as "homophobia".

[Adrift]

[Starlight]

An amusing observation I just happened across in a forum where they were discussing the meaning of homophobia versus its etymology:
The etymology of "gay" is the older English word "gay" meaning "happy". But plenty of gay people are not happy.
The etymology of "lesbian" is a person from the Greek island of Lesbos. But most lesbians are not from Lesbos.
The etymology of "homophobia" is a fear of homosexuals. But most homophobes aren't afraid of gay people.


This concept of etymology not determining the meanings of words actually has a lot of relevance generally to biblical study. In the 19th century there was a lot of uncertainty about the meaning of many of the Greek words in the New Testament, because there were very few or zero other surviving koine Greek documents that used those words. It was so bad, that it was (in)famously speculated that perhaps biblical Greek was a heavenly dialect of Greek that had come into being solely for the purpose of writing the New Testament. As a result, scholars had to do a lot of guessing about the meanings of a lot of the words. One common tactic that was employed was to guess the meaning based on etymology. That turned out about as well for them as someone who tries to understand English by thinking that "understand" means to stand under, that "mandate" means to date a man, that a "lesbian" is a person from lesbos etc. Fortunately, various finds of large document caches, including the Dead Sea Scrolls in the early 20th century, various papyri in the 1970s, and the publication of collected inscriptions from a great many tombs in the late 20th century, massively enriched our knowledge of koine Greek. Because we can now see how the words were actually used we can know their meanings and obtain correct translations, and discard misguided etymology-based speculations. So, Christians involved in any kind of serious biblical study, should, more than anyone else, be acutely aware of the pitfalls of the etymological fallacy, and should know better than to try and guess at meanings based on word origins and word composition. (Incidentally, it should also lead people seriously involved in biblical study to be wary of lexicons, translations, and interpretations, not compiled within the last 30 years or so)

Ironically one of the Greek words that is still not at all well attested in surviving sources, is a key word for biblical interpretation on this topic: Arsenokoites (e.g. 1 Cor 6:9). That word can be literally broken into the pieces "male-bedding-man" if one wants to do so, which may, or may not, be more valid than interpreting the English word "mandate" as a "man-date". It's historically been common to commit the etymological fallacy in the general direction of the word arsenokoites and thus assume it must have a meaning of something akin to "homosexual".