State Farm Syndrome Derail:Miracles.

[Bisto]

Bisto: I am not the one setting the standard for the believability of miracles related to health recoveries. Medicine has set the standard for ALL medical cure claims. If you don't think those standards are fair, take it up with organized western medicine. My opinion isn't worth much.

But, speaking personally, if a panel of unbiased medical experts investigated an unusual health recovery and found that there is no possible natural explanation for the recovery and published this in a peer-reviewed journal article, and after a period of time, no expert in the field could demonstrate that the study was flawed, I would then be willing to admit that it is possible that a supernatural event had occurred.

But I am not going to believe in supernatural causation based simply on anecdotal claims, even by physicians. I want a thorough review, just as I would want a thorough review for any herbal cancer cure claim. No more, no less. I am being consistent.

Bottomline: If Christians expect mythicists to accept the consensus position of relevant experts on the historicity of Jesus, then to be consistent, they must accept the consensus position of relevant experts regarding the unproven status of miracle healings. Nick can't decry the mythicists for accusing the relevant experts of being biased regarding Jesus while at the same time using the same excuse to reject the relevant expert opinion regarding the unproven status of miracle healings. Nick can't have it both ways.

Accept the obvious, my Christian friends: Miracles have not been proven to exist, therefore, there is no proof of a miracle-producing God, therefore, there is no reason to believe that a once in history resurrection is a more probable explanation for the early Christian Resurrection belief than that someone moved the body or that there was no tomb to begin with.

I've done what Nick asked. I've read his book. Now Nick should demonstrate some integrity and admit that his argument has been defeated.

Dont worry. I get you. But I find it funny that in the very next sentence you are being so thorough as if the work of these people amounted to nothing and Christians are just chasing fairy tales. Do panels of experts get periodically called to analyze cases of leprechaun sightings, with positive results?

Like Sparko says, you surely look like one who just isn't interested in finding whether there is truth behind it. The people at work say themselves that this isn't an area where Medicine has been very thorough as a historical field of study, but that their work does invite further research. And the fact that you apparently haven't looked yourself for more available material, since I'm assuming you would share your findings with us. When I have time, I'll give it another five minutes, for YOUR sake.

[Bisto]

Perhaps you should go back and read that link I gave you, or the links that Bisto gave you. You don't think such evidence or cases exist because you refuse to accept any that claim to be so. Your bias limits your viewpoint to the cases that have a natural explanation. Also who is to say that God doesn't use natural solutions to create miraculous recoveries? God can heal anyway he wants to. He actually CREATED nature, ya know? so using nature is well within the bounds.

And now I know your profession thanks to Adrift. You should be the last person to claim that we should base our "truths" soley on science, since your profession relies on pseudoscience and mumbo-jumbo to heal people. If it does work, it isn't because of accepted scientific truth, it is because of something science claims is wrong and unworkable. Yet you peddle it just the same.

Therein lies naturalistic irony. Amusing to a shallow atheist, no doubt.

[Gary]

Perhaps you should go back and read that link I gave you, or the links that Bisto gave you. You don't think such evidence or cases exist because you refuse to accept any that claim to be so. Your bias limits your viewpoint to the cases that have a natural explanation. Also who is to say that God doesn't use natural solutions to create miraculous recoveries? God can heal anyway he wants to. He actually CREATED nature, ya know? so using nature is well within the bounds.

And now I know your profession thanks to Adrift. You should be the last person to claim that we should base our "truths" soley on science, since your profession relies on pseudoscience and mumbo-jumbo to heal people. If it does work, it isn't because of accepted scientific truth, it is because of something science claims is wrong and unworkable. Yet you peddle it just the same.

I read Bisto links and I read Keener's book. Therefore I have looked at the Christian miracle claim evidence at length. The problem for Christians is: Not one single miracle claim has been investigated and confirmed by an independent, unbiased panel of experts and the results published in a peer-reviewed journal of a respected national medical society. Not one.

Therefore, there is no proof that miracles exist.
Therefore, there is no proof of a miracle producing God.
Therefore, Nick cannot use the existence of a miracle producing God to deny the zero prior probability of a once in history resurrection.

Nick's argument fails.

Notice that I did not say that the lack of proof of miracles proves there is no God. I only said it demonstrates that there is no proof of a God who violates the laws of nature to perform supernatural acts.

Note: Your attempts to make this discussion about me are a tried and true trick of the cults: destroy the character and reputation of the ex-member to shut him up. Just to inform you, Sparky, that won't work with me.

[Gary]

Dont worry. I get you. But I find it funny that in the very next sentence you are being so thorough as if the work of these people amounted to nothing and Christians are just chasing fairy tales. Do panels of experts get periodically called to analyze cases of leprechaun sightings, with positive results?

Like Sparko says, you surely look like one who just isn't interested in finding whether there is truth behind it. The people at work say themselves that this isn't an area where Medicine has been very thorough as a historical field of study, but that their work does invite further research. And the fact that you apparently haven't looked yourself for more available material, since I'm assuming you would share your findings with us. When I have time, I'll give it another five minutes, for YOUR sake.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Gary]

Weren't you just arguing that if Christians didn't claim that prayer was PROVEN to create miracle cures, and that if Christians just said it might help sometimes, like your "alternative medicines" that you would have no problem with it?




And yet here you are claiming because prayer only works sometimes, that it is just random chance and not prayer that helps.

The same could be said about your alternative medicines. If it only works sometimes and hasn't be scientifically proven to work all of the time or most of the time, then isn't it likely that it is just random chance and you are taking their money and giving them false hope? That you are just selling snake oil? That you are nothing but a conman?

If you want to preach that prayer sometimes works, go for it. My issue is with Nick and Stein using Keener's book as EVIDENCE of the existence of a miracle producing God to deny the zero prior probability of the Resurrection. The success rate of prayer in relation to the actual number of healings which occur shortly after those prayers are no better than chance! Nick needs to stop the games and admit the truth:

Saying a prayer for healing has no better success rate than not praying and leaving the matter to chance!

Millions of Christians, all over the world, everyday, pray for healing from cancer, paralysis, and other serious illness. Only a small percentage of these people recover. Prayer is either a very poor method of healing...or...prayer doesn't work at all; the few recoveries that do occur are sheer coincidence.

FACE
THE
FACTS!

[Sparko]

I read Bisto links and I read Keener's book. Therefore I have looked at the Christian miracle claim evidence at length. The problem for Christians is: Not one single miracle claim has been investigated and confirmed by an independent, unbiased panel of experts and the results published in a peer-reviewed journal of a respected national medical society. Not one.

Therefore, there is no proof that miracles exist.
Therefore, there is no proof of a miracle producing God.
Therefore, Nick cannot use the existence of a miracle producing God to deny the zero prior probability of a once in history resurrection.

Nick's argument fails.

Notice that I did not say that the lack of proof of miracles proves there is no God. I only said it demonstrates that there is no proof of a God who violates the laws of nature to perform supernatural acts.

Note: Your attempts to make this discussion about me are a tried and true trick of the cults: destroy the character and reputation of the ex-member to shut him up. Just to inform you, Sparky, that won't work with me.

You are a quack and you have the audacity to call me a "cult member?"

I don't have to destroy your character. You do a fine job of that yourself, Gary. You have the reputation of being a fundy atheist who doesn't do any research or studying on any subject you pontificate about. I doubt you actually read some book you are talking about. But even if you did, that is one book. You have not researched anything. And your constant moving of goal posts regarding proof and dismissing anything that comes close to being evidence is hilarious also. No, Gary, I couldn't ruin your character if I tried, because you beat me to it.

[Sparko]

If you want to preach that prayer sometimes works, go for it. My issue is with Nick and Stein using Keener's book as EVIDENCE of the existence of a miracle producing God to deny the zero prior probability of the Resurrection. The success rate of prayer in relation to the actual number of healings which occur shortly after those prayers are no better than chance! Nick needs to stop the games and admit the truth:

Saying a prayer for healing has no better success rate than not praying and leaving the matter to chance!

Millions of Christians, all over the world, everyday, pray for healing from cancer, paralysis, and other serious illness. Only a small percentage of these people recover. Prayer is either a very poor method of healing...or...prayer doesn't work at all; the few recoveries that do occur are sheer coincidence.

FACE
THE
FACTS!

What does prayer to heal have to do with proving the resurrection? Are you sure you read this book you are talking about?

and millions of people do recover from cancer each year. Who is to say it was not because of prayer? Prayer doesn't automatically mean some supernatural magical healing. People who pray for healing pray to be healed by any means: through medicine, or by any other means. Perhaps God helps the doctors find a way to cure the cancer. Perhaps God makes the medicine work better. Perhaps God strengthens their immune systems to fight off the cancer. God can heal someone in a way that looks perfectly normal and that is still an answer to a prayer, Gary. He can even heal people who use your fake snake oil treatments.

How much actual medical schooling do you have? Not some night course in alternative therapy. Actual college medical school for becoming a real physician? I am willing to bet the answer is none. You worship at the altar of science in word only. In life, you are probably just a phony fly by night huckster out to sell fake cures to sick people. No better than a televangelist yourself.

[Adrift]

You are a quack and you have the audacity to call me a "cult member?"

I don't have to destroy your character. You do a fine job of that yourself, Gary. You have the reputation of being a fundy atheist who doesn't do any research or studying on any subject you pontificate about. I doubt you actually read some book you are talking about. But even if you did, that is one book. You have not researched anything. And your constant moving of goal posts regarding proof and dismissing anything that comes close to being evidence is hilarious also. No, Gary, I couldn't ruin your character if I tried, because you beat me to it.

People would call out his hypocrisy whether he was an ex-Christian or not, but he has to deflect somehow, so calling it a "cult trick" is his best effort.

And yeah, he seems to have at least skimmed over some of Craig Keener's two volume book, Miracles (after nearly a year of dismissing it out of hand). Predictably, when he finally caved and grabbed a copy it was with the intent of trashing it, and of course plenty of goalposts were moved, and strawmen were beaten.

As I said before, he's stacked the deck so that nothing will convince him of the miraculous. He's looking for an imaginary expert (in what? miracles presumably), who is able to nail down something that is, by very definition, a unique, extra-natural, and non-reproducible event, put it under a microscope, and perform controlled experiments on it. Then, without questioning the nature of the source of this event (because to posit the event had a particular source, say Yahweh, would demonstrate bias), submit said event to a medical journal to be published even though such journals typically limit submissions to naturalistic causes.

[Gary]

You are a quack and you have the audacity to call me a "cult member?"

I don't have to destroy your character. You do a fine job of that yourself, Gary. You have the reputation of being a fundy atheist who doesn't do any research or studying on any subject you pontificate about. I doubt you actually read some book you are talking about. But even if you did, that is one book. You have not researched anything. And your constant moving of goal posts regarding proof and dismissing anything that comes close to being evidence is hilarious also. No, Gary, I couldn't ruin your character if I tried, because you beat me to it.

Dear Readers: Notice the accusation, "you don't do any research".

I have read books by scholars, such as NT Wright's 800 page book on the Resurrection, and I just read Keener's "Miracles" at Nick's request, and I have read numerous articles by other NT scholars. But...it is never enough for conservative Christians. Never enough.

In the mindset of conservative Christians like Nick and Sparky, even if I were to read every book ever written by every NT scholar it would still not be enough...until I surrender, and accept the Christian supernatural tales as historical reality.

These people are not rational. They only care about evidence when it suits their purposes. They ARE a cult, friends. Don't let them fool you.

[Adrift]

Dear Readers: Notice the accusation, "you don't do any research".

I have read books by scholars, such as NT Wright's 800 page book on the Resurrection, and I just read Keener's "Miracles" at Nick's request, and I have read numerous articles by other NT scholars. But...it is never enough for conservative Christians. Never enough.

In the mindset of conservative Christians like Nick and Sparky, even if I were to read every book ever written by every NT scholar it will still not be enough...until I surrender and accept the Christian supernatural tales as historical reality.

They ARE a cult, friends. Don't let them fool you.

I don't believe you've read The Resurrection of the Son of God for a second. If you have, then you have the absolute worse reading comprehension and retention of anyone I've ever witnessed. You couldn't recall anything that he said about the resurrection, and constantly asked questions in previous threads that were thoroughly answered there, and that you seemed not to have any awareness of.

And again, who are you talking to? Who is this imaginary group of "readers" that you believe are hanging on your every word? You're delusional dude.

[Gary]

What does prayer to heal have to do with proving the resurrection? Are you sure you read this book you are talking about?

and millions of people do recover from cancer each year. Who is to say it was not because of prayer? Prayer doesn't automatically mean some supernatural magical healing. People who pray for healing pray to be healed by any means: through medicine, or by any other means. Perhaps God helps the doctors find a way to cure the cancer. Perhaps God makes the medicine work better. Perhaps God strengthens their immune systems to fight off the cancer. God can heal someone in a way that looks perfectly normal and that is still an answer to a prayer, Gary. He can even heal people who use your fake snake oil treatments.

How much actual medical schooling do you have? Not some night course in alternative therapy. Actual college medical school for becoming a real physician? I am willing to bet the answer is none. You worship at the altar of science in word only. In life, you are probably just a phony fly by night huckster out to sell fake cures to sick people. No better than a televangelist yourself.

Sure, if a Christian prays to be healed of his sinus infection or ankle sprain, he will most likely recover...and credit his healing to prayer...

So what.

I'm talking about terminal cancer.
I'm talking about paralysis from a stroke.
I'm talking about end stage Parkinson's or Alzheimer's.
I'm talking about limb amputations.

How many of these severe diseases/conditions have been healed over the last 2,000 years, after millions and millions of prayers have been said to Jesus begging for healing???

Answer: Very, very, very few.

PRAYER
DOESN'T
WORK!

"What does prayer to heal have to do with proving the resurrection? Are you sure you read this book you are talking about?"

Ask Nick. It's his silly argument.

[Sparko]

Dear Readers: Notice the accusation, "you don't do any research".

I have read books by scholars, such as NT Wright's 800 page book on the Resurrection, and I just read Keener's "Miracles" at Nick's request, and I have read numerous articles by other NT scholars. But...it is never enough for conservative Christians. Never enough.

In the mindset of conservative Christians like Nick and Sparky, even if I were to read every book ever written by every NT scholar it would still not be enough...until I surrender, and accept the Christian supernatural tales as historical reality.

These people are not rational. They only care about evidence when it suits their purposes. They ARE a cult, friends. Don't let them fool you.

er who are you pontificating to? The "readers" of this thread think you are a biased fundy atheist. Even other athiests would agree. Your standard of "proof" is unnatainable. It doesn't even exist for the "alternative" medicine that you peddle, yet that doesn't seem to stop you from peddling it to sick people desperate for a cure. How are you different from a televangelist other than you are not up on a stage? What makes you different from a witch doctor? And yet you have the audacity to call Christianity a "cult"?

Take the beam out of your own eye before you take the splinter out of ours.

[Gary]

People would call out his hypocrisy whether he was an ex-Christian or not, but he has to deflect somehow, so calling it a "cult trick" is his best effort.

And yeah, he seems to have at least skimmed over some of Craig Keener's two volume book, Miracles (after nearly a year of dismissing it out of hand). Predictably, when he finally caved and grabbed a copy it was with the intent of trashing it, and of course plenty of goalposts were moved, and strawmen were beaten.

As I said before, he's stacked the deck so that nothing will convince him of the miraculous. He's looking for an imaginary expert (in what? miracles presumably), who is able to nail down something that is, by very definition, a unique, extra-natural, and non-reproducible event, put it under a microscope, and perform controlled experiments on it. Then, without questioning the nature of the source of this event (because to posit the event had a particular source, say Yahweh, would demonstrate bias), submit said event to a medical journal to be published even though such journals typically limit submissions to naturalistic causes.

Typical cult member. I have read your propaganda and pointed out that the author of the propaganda admits over and over again within the text of the propaganda that he did not research the miracle claims, he is only retelling the miracle claims as told to him from his often second, third, and so on sources.

Yet your refuse to admit that.

You ARE a cult member.

[Gary]

er who are you pontificating to? The "readers" of this thread think you are a biased fundy atheist. Even other athiests would agree. Your standard of "proof" is unnatainable. It doesn't even exist for the "alternative" medicine that you peddle, yet that doesn't seem to stop you from peddling it to sick people desperate for a cure. How are you different from a televangelist other than you are not up on a stage? What makes you different from a witch doctor? And yet you have the audacity to call Christianity a "cult"?

Take the beam out of your own eye before you take the splinter out of ours.

That's right. Keep trying to deflect the spotlight from your cult's teachings.

You
are
a
cult
member.

I'll let you in on a secret. I have been hired by the family of one of the Christian members of TW (who wish to remain anonymous) to conduct an intervention into your cult to try to rescue their family member, and, if possible, any other member of the cult that I can bring out. So by "Readers" I am referring to this family and other interested parties who are following this intervention attempt.

[Gary]

I don't believe you've read The Resurrection of the Son of God for a second. If you have, then you have the absolute worse reading comprehension and retention of anyone I've ever witnessed. You couldn't recall anything that he said about the resurrection, and constantly asked questions in previous threads that were thoroughly answered there, and that you seemed not to have any awareness of.

And again, who are you talking to? Who is this imaginary group of "readers" that you believe are hanging on your every word? You're delusional dude.

I never said I read the book "for a second time". I read it once, you dim wit. And GET THAT FILTHY CIGARETTE OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!