Originally posted by Raphael
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"Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostSeriously, your more worried about what kind of English someone uses for a universal English translation but not worried that the Bible has polygamy in it?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAm I worried that the Bible portrays history? No."Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostSeriously, your more worried about what kind of English someone uses for a universal English translation but not worried that the Bible has polygamy in it?
2.) Whilst the Bible permits polygamy it is never held up as an ideal and in most cases in the Bible is the cause of problems.
3.) The English language has changed over the last 400 years.Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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Originally posted by Raphael View Post1.) I come from a country where polygamy is fairly common.
2.) Whilst the Bible permits polygamy it is never held up as an ideal and in most cases in the Bible is the cause of problems.
3.) The English language has changed over the last 400 years."Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostDoesn't mean his translation was somehow different, it's just a thou rather than a you.
There is a BIG difference between a command of "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not murder" the translation in the KJV is flawed (there are a number of translation issues with the KJV in general, this is one of them add in the language shift).
By using the KJV with it's "Thou Shalt Not Kill" Gary can claim that the Bible forbids any killing while sending the Israelites off to war and putting in crimes that carry the death penalty to their legal code.
All the newer translations use the correct word "murder"Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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War is murder in my opinion."Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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Originally posted by Gary View Post
"Thou shalt not kill."
The interpretation, even by Christians, of the Ten Commandments has changed: The definition of murder (killing) has changed; the rules of war (killing) have changed; and what constitutes just grounds for execution (killing) has most definitely changed."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostWar is murder in my opinion."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostWar is murder in my opinion."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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I subscribe to Just War theory1.
Back to Polygamy, the ESV Study Bible Ethics article dealing with Polygamy agrees with my assertion that while the Bible allows polygamy, it is never lifted as an ideal and is indeed the cause of trouble:
http://www.esvbible.org/resources/es...exual-morality (not sure the link will work for you)
1. The just war ethic argues that warfare is sometimes necessary in order to resist or reverse specific unjust actions taken by one government or nation against another, but it also insists that war is always regrettable, is always something to avoid if possible, and is never to be used to establish some new vision of a social order.Last edited by Raphael; 04-20-2016, 11:41 PM.Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostIt translates the word as Kill where it is meant to be Murder.
There is a BIG difference between a command of "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not murder" the translation in the KJV is flawed (there are a number of translation issues with the KJV in general, this is one of them add in the language shift).
By using the KJV with it's "Thou Shalt Not Kill" Gary can claim that the Bible forbids any killing while sending the Israelites off to war and putting in crimes that carry the death penalty to their legal code.
All the newer translations use the correct word "murder"
---If the town council of a city today were to stone a woman for not having an intact hymen on her wedding night, most people today would consider that murder.
---If an army hunted down and killed every man, woman, and child of an enemy nation today, most people today would consider that murder.
---If a community stoned to death a child for cursing her father and mother, that act today would be considered murder.
Even most conservative Christians would consider these acts, if they occurred today, to be acts of murder. This demonstrates my earlier point (which I obviously did not express clearly): the definition of MURDER and the definition of "justified killing" have changed, even among the followers of Yahweh. This is confirmation that morality is not absolute; it changes with time and social circumstances.Last edited by Gary; 04-21-2016, 12:24 AM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIf you re-read my post, it was not my intention to infer that the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" meant you can never kill. I fully agree that the context indicates that it meant: "Thou shalt not murder". What I was trying to say is that many acts of killing during the time period of early Israel which would not have met the definition of murder, would today be considered murder. The definition of murder has changed:
---If the town council of a city today were to stone a woman for not having an intact hymen on her wedding night, most people today would consider that murder.
---If an army hunted down and killed every man, woman, and child of an enemy nation today, most people today would consider that murder.
---If a community stoned to death a child for cursing her father and mother, that act today would be considered murder.
Even most conservative Christians would consider these acts, if they occurred today, to be acts of murder. This demonstrates my earlier point (which I obviously did not express clearly): the definition of MURDER and the definition of "justified killing" have changed, even among the followers of Yahweh. This is confirmation that morality is not absolute; it changes with time and social circumstances.Last edited by Adrift; 04-21-2016, 07:50 AM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYour entire perspective on this issue is off. The definition of murder hasn't changed. Murder is still the unjust taking of life. Most Christians do not consider the legal ramifications found in the Old Testament for ancient Israel unjust, nor do they consider it murder given the context, which was under a legal code written for a kingdom under a contractual obligation to God, in a collectivist, honor-based, agrarian society in which prisons were unlikely to exist, and under a pre-grace administration. That Christ's administration of grace freed those in Christ from the penalty of the law does not mean that morality changed, or that the law was immoral. Furthermore, that the legal penalty for adultery, persecution, disobedience, what-have-you, has changed/or no longer exists, does not mean that those things are now morally good. The morality hasn't changed. That you believe that a change/lack in penalty for immoral behavior somehow means that the definition of "moral" has changed just shows your complete ignorance on the topic (which, sadly, is not unusual for you). You really didn't think this out very thoroughly, did you.
During the time of early Israel, killing a bride for not having an intact hymen was not considered immoral. Most Christians today, justify the killing of brides without intact hymen during the time period of ancient Israel with various justificantions. Today, however, killing a bride for not having an intact hymen on her wedding night would be considered murder, even by the overwhelming majority of Christians.
The definition of "murder" and the definition of a "justified killing" have changed...even among the followers of Yahweh.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostSo you're solution would have been to let the Nazi's conquer the world? Hey, your logic, I'm just using it against you."Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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