SOOOOOO missing this movie...
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Forum Rules: Here
Find out if Caesar crossed the Rubicon or threw a dollar across it.
This is the forum where world history, in general, can be discussed. Since the WH201, like the other fora in the World History department, is not limited to participation along lines of theology, all may post here.
Please keep the Campus Decorum in mind when posting here--while 'belief' restrictions are not in place, common decency is.
The Tweb rules are in force . . . we're watching you.
Forum Rules: Here
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Noah: Is this a good movie? Is it good ancient history?
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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It's a Biblical movie written by an atheist.....that should tell you something.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostJust to remind people. AIG doesn't like anything that isn't quoted from the Bible and this includes things that aren't their version of the Bible.
Besides, AIG doesn't seem to be alone in having problems with this thing."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostAre you saying Mattson belongs to AIG?
Besides, AIG doesn't seem to be alone in having problems with this thing.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostMy sister said it didn't to my parents too. The rumor is coming from SOMEWHERE....Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostUm... From AiG:
Seriously, the obsession with AIG is silly. There are a number of Christian and related sources that have raised objections so the issue is hardly one of following AIG."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostUm... From AiG:
I'm not sure I understand AiG's distinction between recommending people not see the movie and calling for a boycott. Would the latter be some kind of more authoritative condemnation? Do some people view AiG as having some kind of ecclesial authority? I don't know hardly anything about them but I thought they were just a website and theme park. Are they something more than that?Last edited by robrecht; 04-04-2014, 04:48 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Depends on who you're asking - they're either evul Creationists or the vanguard of creation science. My personal opinion is that both views are overblown and if we aren't actually discussing evolution, it's a moot point.
Am I the only one that finds the gnostic theory far more important than whether or not AIG likes the thing?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostDepends on who you're asking - they're either evul Creationists or the vanguard of creation science. My personal opinion is that both views are overblown and if we aren't actually discussing evolution, it's a moot point.
Am I the only one that finds the gnostic theory far more important than whether or not AIG likes the thing?
Personally, I think the gnostic/kabbalah/Enoch interpretations are much more important but there are points that I'm not sure of without looking up some passages that I only vaguely remember.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut what do they think and say of themselves? Do they see themselves as having some kind of ecclesial or other form of authority beyond that of recommending people not see the movie?
Originally posted by robrechtPersonally, I think the gnostic/kabbalah/Enoch interpretations are much more important but there are points that I'm not sure of without looking up some passages that I only vaguely remember."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostDon't think so but see for yourself: http://www.answersingenesis.org/about
When you get around to it, post the citations, please. I'm not familiar enough with it to look things up without a lot of time and effort I don't have time for right now, but I would like to read up.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostAre you saying Mattson belongs to AIG?
Besides, AIG doesn't seem to be alone in having problems with this thing.
Dr. Brian Mattson Welcome to my website !
I am a theologian, writer, speaker, singer/songwriter, recording artist, and I avidly follow current events, cultural and political, as well as the Minnesota Twins Baseball Club.
I was born, raised, and currently live in the State of Montana, Big Sky Country, or, as we like to call it, "The Last Best Place." Educationally, I obtained a B.A. from Montana State University-Billings, an M.A.R. from Westminster Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. in Systematic Theology from the University of Aberdeen (Scotland). I now serve as Senior Scholar of Public Theology for the Center for Cultural Leadership. I am honored as well to serve as faculty for the Alliance Defending Freedom's Blackstone Legal Fellowship and Collegiate Academy. I also co-host and produce Dead Reckoning, a weekly web video show and podcast.
I hope you enjoy my musings, my music, teaching, web show, podcasts, and other contributions. Thanks for stopping by!
There is much good stuff on the website that cannot be linked individually. I found this entry to be interesting:
NOAH'S CO-WRITER SPEAKS
Ari Handel, co-writer of Noah, was interviewed by Relevant Magazine about the controversial theology in the film. He's one of those guys that just gives a terrific interview (he's one of the reasons I saw it in the first place), and I recommend it to you.
My takeaways:
Handel's a really intelligent, diplomatic, and articulate guy. Smart to have him be the "voice" of the filmmakers.
A key passage:
Exactly. Grounded in texts outside the biblical narrative. That's not, in and of itself, problematic. But the texts they used, as far as I can tell, are a hodgepodge amalgamation of things, some of which are esoteric traditions that have an interest in subverting the biblical story, not affirming it. Also notice that he confirms that nothing in the film is accidental. Everything was thoughtful and "grounded" in a source somewhere. That's what I suspected.
He insists that nothing "contradicted the Genesis story." First, I take that as an admission of my original point: many details, themes, and symbols are simply not from the Genesis story. Second, he's just wrong that "nothing" contradicted the Genesis story. Plenty of others have plowed that field, so I needn't rehash it.
About the snake skin thing, Handel ought to know what he was thinking, and I'm glad he cleared it up. The idea of a "skin" of immortality that the Serpent shed is found in nascent form, (one source, no doubt, among others) in Philo of Alexandria, Questions and Answers on Genesis, I, 33. His idea is that the snake wanted to appear young and innocent, so as to deceive Eve into thinking he had the key to remaining... young and innocent. Suffice it to say, there's nothing about passing this skin along as an artifact.
It's interesting, to be sure. But if you're unaware of who Philo is, let's just say that he is the father of reading the Hebrew Bible in obscure, allegorical ways that conform it to Platonic philosophy (i.e., the "graded" universe of spirit/mind/male="higher and good," matter/flesh/female="lower and bad"). He's the head of a stream that ultimately forms the river of precisely the kinds of Neoplatonic speculation I originally identified in my review.
As it is, Aronofsky and Handel have taken the symbol of the Serpent (a Gnostic "dog whistle" of all dog whistles) and turned it into a magical blessing; they have the characters wrap it around their arms reminiscent of Jewish Teffilin, the small, black boxes that contain the Torah.
Replacing Torah with a Serpent.
If people still want to believe (perhaps even Handel himself) that this isn't a subversion, they can. But I'm not buying it.Last edited by John Reece; 04-05-2014, 03:35 PM.
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Thanks, John. There's no question that the movie offers a subversive reading of Genesis based on extra-biblical texts. I would not recommend it to anyone who does not expect this and is not prepared for this.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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