Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

That does not affect the FUNDAMENTAL definition in the slightest. Christ Jesus referred to the Father as "my God and yours." so co-equality isn't much more than an afterthought. More than one passage of scripture shows a definite subordinate role for the Logos to the Father, and a probable subordinate role for the Holy Spirit to the Logos.

If someone is subordinate, he is not equal.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Yes. It was a later invention of the Church. You won't find it in the New Testament.

Oh good grief.....

Oh good grief........

Seriously?

Look. Go to 1 Cor. 8:4-6. You know what that is? It's a Christianized version of the Shema, the great Israelite statement of their devotion to YHWH and that He alone was God. What has Paul done? Paul has put Jesus right smack in the Shema and given Him the title of Lord in there.

Seriously. Go read some Hurtado and some Bauckham on the early Christian devotion to Jesus. The earliest Christology we have post-resurrection is a full-fledged Christology of Jesus being included entirely in the divine identity.

Good night. Try reading some scholarly books sometime.

[Apologiaphoenix]

If someone is subordinate, he is not equal.

I hope Gary doesn't work for someone else or have others working for him. That would just reek of inequality.

[tabibito]

If someone is subordinate, he is not equal.

And subordinate roles don't affect the core doctrine of the Trinity in the slightest.

Even in the trinity of the human, even in the naturalistic understanding of the trinity that is human, the super-ego is superior to the ego is superior to the id.

[Gary]

Oh good grief.....

Oh good grief........

Seriously?

Look. Go to 1 Cor. 8:4-6. You know what that is? It's a Christianized version of the Shema, the great Israelite statement of their devotion to YHWH and that He alone was God. What has Paul done? Paul has put Jesus right smack in the Shema and given Him the title of Lord in there.

Seriously. Go read some Hurtado and some Bauckham on the early Christian devotion to Jesus. The earliest Christology we have post-resurrection is a full-fledged Christology of Jesus being included entirely in the divine identity.

Good night. Try reading some scholarly books sometime.

I don't care what spin you present. There is nowhere in the NT that says that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one being and that they are equal in power and status. You may find passages that can be construed to say that Jesus and the Father are one, but none that say all three are one.

The concept of a Trinity is a later Church invention. This is why Christians fought over this issue into the 4th and 5th centuries.

[Gary]

And subordinate roles don't affect the core doctrine of the Trinity in the slightest.

Even in the trinity of the human, even in the naturalistic understanding of the trinity that is human, the super-ego is superior to the ego is superior to the id.

It most certainly does. Someone who is subordinate is not equal.

You don't sound very Trinitarian, Tabby. Are you a Mormon?

[tabibito]

John 1:1

εν αρχης ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος.
In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.

He was in the beginning with God
All things were made through him and without him nothing was that was made was made.

Colossians 1:16

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:8 - 10

But to the Son He says:
_{8 9} You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. ₁₀

Philippians 2:5

₅ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, ₆ who, being in the form of God, did not consider it booty to be equal with God ₇ but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men

[Gary]

John 1:1

εν αρχης ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος.
In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.

He was in the beginning with God
All things were made through him and without him nothing was that was made was made.

Colossians 1:16

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:8 - 10

But to the Son He says:
_{8 9} You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. ₁₀

Philippians 2:5

₅ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, ₆ who, being in the form of God, did not consider it booty to be equal with God ₇ but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men

http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/...s-the-trinity/

Gary: Jesus was a Jew. Jesus knew very well the above Jewish concept of G_d's indivisibility.

If Jesus were alive today he would be horrified that his followers have elevated him to be Yahwheh himself, the Creator.

[tabibito]

It most certainly does. Someone who is subordinate is not equal.

You don't sound very Trinitarian, Tabby. Are you a Mormon?

I believe that Apostoli is a member of the Church of Rome in good standing.

The very fact that even in his pre-existence, the Son was Son, and even now remains Son, makes him eternally subordinate to the Father. However, from the teaching of the homoousios we learn that he is equal to his Father in terms of his Godhead.

And your question is just laughably ignorant. Ignorant of what, I'm not sure.

[Gary]

I believe that Apostoli is a member of the Church of Rome in good standing.



And your question is just laughably ignorant. Ignorant of what, I'm not sure.

You are not a Trinitarian.

[Gary]

[tabibito]

You don't get to assign the definitions ... The Father is God, the Logos is God, the Holy Spirit is God. That you think the affirmation makes me not a trinitarian is wholly irrelevant.

[tabibito]

If God existed before time, then God transcends dimensions of space and time, therefore he is indivisible, he has no parts, no separate persons. The Trinity is an elaborate ruse by fourth and fifth century Churchmen to square Christianity's three divine beings with Jewish monotheism. It fails miserably.

The statements in the New Testament regarding the deity of Christ pre-date the fourth century by quite a few years. You just posted evidence of the lack of credibility of the site you are relying on as an authority.

[Gary]

You don't get to assign the definitions ... The Father is God, the Logos is God, the Holy Spirit is God. That you think the affirmation makes me not a trinitarian is wholly irrelevant.

You are not Trinitarian. You are a modern Arian.

Not only Jews and atheists/agnostics think that the Trinity is a nonsensical concept. Here is what the soon-to-be largest monotheistic religion on the planet says about the Christian concept of a Trinity:

The three monotheistic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as tawhid in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema" or the Jewish creed of faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.

If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:

"...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity... for there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost is all one... they are not three gods, but one God... the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal... he therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity..." (excerpts from the Athanasian Creed)

Let's put this together in a different form: one person, God the Father + one person, God the Son + one person, God the Holy Ghost = one person, God the What? Is this English or is this gibberish?

It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

How did such a confusing doctrine get its start?

Source: http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/trinity.htm

[Gary]

The statements in the New Testament regarding the deity of Christ pre-date the fourth century by quite a few years. You just posted evidence of the lack of credibility of the site you are relying on as an authority.

Wrong. Jesus never makes any statement that remotely resembles the doctrine of the Trinity. And there is good evidence that the passages that vaguely allude to a trinity were doctored by latter churchmen:

References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.

In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While the "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text - that is, not the actual words of Jesus - as can be seen by two factors:


1. Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and
2. The "Great Commission" found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15.

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.

Source: http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/trinity.htm