Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

Yawn and yawn....none of them ANYWHERE claim that God is directly doing them in all instances on the planet. Stop lying on the texts to save your weak point. you constantly lose focus of your own arguments. You claimed science has now proven that phenomenon claimed to be direct actions of God in the past have naturalistic explanations that rule out the supernatural.

Nowhere has science shown that fire and brimstone fell on Sodom and gomorrah naturally
Nowhere has science shown that a country can suffer ten plagues right after another naturally
Nowhere has science confirmed that the storm that affected Jonas was not of God's doing.
nowhere has any scientist confirmed that the actions in THOSE PARTICULAR INSTANCES were not actions of God
and Nowhere HAS SCIENCE proven that the laws that made some of them possible do not derive from God.

in order for your claim to hold any water you have to show where anyone in the Bible claims that a naturally occurring phenomenon always occurs as a result of direction from God. duh......The bible has miracles but it nowhere states that all the things we explain now by science were previously explained by miraculous intervention from God. Rain fell in the Bible without God creating new water. Insects bred without God creating new ones. Lightning fell without God throwing lightning bolts. Sure the Bible has some miraculous judgments. Who said otherwise?? But it DOES NOT SAY God always makes the rain fall by direct action, lightning is from God throwing lightning bolts or even earthquakes are always God stamping his feet. So science has not shown anything of what you claim because the claim itself was bogus.

Science studies natural phenomenon and no passage of scripture claims that rain only falls by direct action of god, or earthquakes only happen when god directly says so. its a nonsense claim on your and every skeptics part. Go to greek mythology for that - not Christianity. Again our God rested on the seventh day . He is not running around creating every bolt of lightning individually. He created the laws behind them so that he CAN claim responsibility but once the laws were in place he rested/ceased. Outside special circumstances the world chugs along merely obeying laws of the universe he set up and nothing science has proven contradicts that the world and universe operate according to laws.



Nope my holy book covers thousands of years and cites only rarely over those years events direct attributable to God. It covers hundreds of years at a time where the world just chugged along with no miracle or even prophets. Rain fell, lightning thundered, earthquakes hit with not a peep from it about God doing it . If you have merely a Sunday school understanding of the Bible then you are confused. Shucks my holy book even chides disciples for thinking bad things happening are always the result of superior judgment from God and states some people are sick for reasons not to do with sin. You should pick it up and read it sometime

Your holy book disagrees with you:

Matthew 5:45

45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

This passage clearly states that your god claims to control every ray of sunshine and every drop of rain that falls on the earth. Therefore if true, your god is responsible for all droughts all storms, and all floods. If it isn't raining, pray to Yahweh. If it is raining too much, pray to Yahweh. Pray people of the earth to Yahweh, because according to the Christian holy book, Yahweh is behind all meteorological (weather) events.

[Gary]

"Who cares about Mark for prophecies? Fall of Jerusalem is prophecied from back in Daniel 9 and for the careful reader in Zechariah. return of the jews to Israel is prophecied over a millenia before they returned in 1948. sorry no way you can claim all prophecies are written after the fact. my Grandma has english translations of the bible before 1948. No Hebrew scholar i know puts any passage in the OT as written in the common era."

I never said that the books of the OT were written in the Common Era, however, there are quite a few scholars of the OT who believe that much of the OT was written in the seventh century by priests in Jerusalem, not by Moses, Joshua, etc. And even many of the latter prophets are now believed to have been written by someone other than the traditional author assigned to the book. This is simply scholarship, Mike. You don't have to take my word for it.

[tabibito]

No, Tabby, you simply assume that Jesus had something to do with your miracle. If the existence of the miracles in Craig Keener's book are real, then all it proves is that miracles happen, it does not answer why and by whom they are caused. Miracles could be caused by a multitude of supernatural beings. Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, and many other religions claim multiple miracles and attribute these miracles to their gods. So it is possible that Allah or Lord Brahma or Krishna is responsible for your miracle. Or maybe Satan is responsible. Maybe Jehovah is the one, true god. Maybe Jehovah has turned you over to Satan for worshipping other polytheistic gods (the three gods of Christianity), therefore Satan performs miracles to keep you convinced that Jesus is god so that you will be condemned to the Jewish Hell for disobeying the key commandment: thou shalt have NO other gods before me (Yahweh).

You don't believe that any of this is true, but you can't prove it isn't possible.

Your miracle may well have happened, but as to the cause of your miracle, you can only guess.

1/ Why would anyone accept you know more about than does the person who did it?
2/ To think that the trinity is in any way polytheistic is an absolute failure to understand the fundamentals of the trinity.

[Gary]

"I have already given you a link to one Jewish scholar that accepts the Hebrew bible as referring to christ so claiming "every jewish scholar" denies the old testament prophecies refer to Jesus is just lying ."

A Jewish scholar who accepts the Hebrew Bible refers to JESUS Christ?? Please give me the link again. But just to warn you, I and all of Judaism do not accept someone who calls him or herself a "messianic Jew" a real Jew, they are a Christian.

[Gary]

If the overwhelming majority of New Testament scholars agree on an issue, I would be a fool to disagree. I believe that the same holds true with a position held by an overwhelming percentage of Hebrew Bible scholars, and the overwhelming majority of Hebrew Bible scholars say that the Hebrew scriptures neither say nor prophesy anything about Jesus of Nazareth.

I am not going to debate you on your fringe position regarding the Hebrew Bible. I would refer you to Jewish scholars on the subject.

[Mikeenders]

From the second article you linked:

LOL....gary tries desperately to skip over the parts of the article he knows will not go over well

Did you miss this tidbit before that?

" And in some of these bubble universes, the laws of physics and fundamental constants might be different than in ours, making some universes strange places indeed."

Curious how you dropped down to three and skipped one and two

Now explain to the class how you can appeal to other dimensions with different laws that we cannot travel to and not be appealing to a kind of supernatural???

Again, this article says nothing about multiuniverses as proof of the supernatural.

NO one said anything about proof. Don't try and move the goal post now that you are actually finally learning you were wrong. the point is that both atheist and theist end up appealing to the supernatural. there really is no other alternative. Natural things do not naturally create themselves. Thats why scientists are going in those directions. meanwhile different dimensions are appeals to a reality beyond this one and as such are every bit as supernatural as what you have been ranting against.

Your point is DOA. Deal with it and and don't try to run off onto to some other subject. You've skipped around enough. No more ducking and handwaving and trying to change the subject. Your major quibble has been how theists invoke the supernatural and how its unlikely but as you are now learning naturalists scientists are themselves exploring supernatural (outside of our universe) concepts because thats where the logic states the answer to this universes existence lends itself to.

[Mikeenders]

Your holy book disagrees with you:

Matthew 5:45

45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

This passage clearly states that your god claims to control every ray of sunshine and every drop of rain that falls on the earth. Therefore if true, your god is responsible for all droughts all storms, and all floods. If it isn't raining, pray to Yahweh. If it is raining too much, pray to Yahweh. Pray people of the earth to Yahweh, because according to the Christian holy book, Yahweh is behind all meteorological (weather) events.

OF course God controls everything. LOl who said other wise? but he does that by his law and science has not gone a single thing to disprove that. Further you need to learn how to read. that verse is in COMPLETE agreement with me. Theres no special command or act form god for the righteous to get rain and the unrighteous not. Rain falls for all not just as a special blessing from God.

Thanks Gary thats another verse that backs my point.

[Gary]

Here are the truehttp://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Deb...ans/Page26.htm

Jesus failed several of the messianic requirements but the most obvious is that he was not a descendent of David and Solomon through his father's line, since he allegedly had no father. I realize that Christians have come up with some of the most stupefying harmonizations for this messianic fail on Jesus part but Jews don't buy them.

[Mikeenders]

I never said that the books of the OT were written in the Common Era, however, there are quite a few scholars of the OT who believe that much of the OT was written in the seventh century by priests in Jerusalem, not by Moses, Joshua, etc. And even many of the latter prophets are now believed to have been written by someone other than the traditional author assigned to the book. This is simply scholarship, Mike. You don't have to take my word for it.

I don't even need to get into that at the moment or in your idea of scholarship. Doesn't matter fiddly sticks for the point I am making. You are just trying to run off into some other avenue as you always do. As long as the OT is complete by the start of the common era ton loads of prophecies stand and stand well. You ahve no fact data or "scholarship" that claims the OT was written anywhere near as late as the common era so your point is dead.

[Gary]

1/ Why would anyone accept you know more about than does the person who did it?
2/ To think that the trinity is in any way polytheistic is an absolute failure to understand the fundamentals of the trinity.

Please explain the fundamentals of the Trinity, Tabby, without invoking at any time the term "mystery".

[Gary]

LOL....gary tries desperately to skip over the parts of the article he knows will not go over well

Did you miss this tidbit before that?

" And in some of these bubble universes, the laws of physics and fundamental constants might be different than in ours, making some universes strange places indeed."

Curious how you dropped down to three and skipped one and two

Now explain to the class how you can appeal to other dimensions with different laws that we cannot travel to and not be appealing to a kind of supernatural???



NO one said anything about proof. Don't try and move the goal post now that you are actually finally learning you were wrong. the point is that both atheist and theist end up appealing to the supernatural. there really is no other alternative. Natural things do not naturally create themselves. Thats why scientists are going in those directions. meanwhile different dimensions are appeals to a reality beyond this one and as such are every bit as supernatural as what you have been ranting against.

Your point is DOA. Deal with it and and don't try to run off onto to some other subject. You've skipped around enough. No more ducking and handwaving and trying to change the subject. Your major quibble has been how theists invoke the supernatural and how its unlikely but as you are now learning naturalists scientists are themselves exploring supernatural (outside of our universe) concepts because thats where the logic states the answer to this universes existence lends itself to.

Your scientific analysis and logic are faulty, Mike. With what degree did you graduate college?

[Gary]

OF course God controls everything. LOl who said other wise? but he does that by his law and science has not gone a single thing to disprove that. Further you need to learn how to read. that verse is in COMPLETE agreement with me. Theres no special command or act form god for the righteous to get rain and the unrighteous not. Rain falls for all not just as a special blessing from God.

Thanks Gary thats another verse that backs my point.

The point is that your ancient holy book makes the claim that your Bronze Age, middle-eastern god, Yahweh, controls the weather, as if he were standing behind a screen pulling separate levers for rain, thunder, and sunshine. Science has proven that weather works by the laws of nature, not by some invisible being with a temperamental, vindictive temperament pulling levers behind a gigantic screen, somewhere on the outer limits of space.

[Gary]

I don't even need to get into that at the moment or in your idea of scholarship. Doesn't matter fiddly sticks for the point I am making. You are just trying to run off into some other avenue as you always do. As long as the OT is complete by the start of the common era ton loads of prophecies stand and stand well. You ahve no fact data or "scholarship" that claims the OT was written anywhere near as late as the common era so your point is dead.

The seventh century BCE is not "anywhere near as late as the common era", Mike.

Did you graduate from college, Mike?

[Gary]

http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm#Q1.B1

[Mikeenders]

Here are the true

As usual gary having no grasp of the actual data nor material must do a copy and paste to assert as fact what he claims as such. still lets see how it does.

First all rational human beings can forever reject any racist claim that only people of a given race can know facts about anything. so the first point made can be rejected out of hand. As a lesser point to that several Jews have come to the conclusion Jesus is the messiah

Next

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

check Jesus was Jewish

2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

Check Jesus was a descendant of david

3

) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

Isaiah 11 states at the time he does this he must be looked at and accepted the world over by gentiles. So clearly Messiah must be known to the gentile nations before he regathers remaining Jews outside of jerusalem. Jesus very much therefore qualifies. Sorry Gary but good verse

4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

Proof positive Gary does not even read what he posts. Micah 4:1 has nothing whatsoever about messiah building the temple in that passage. All quotations will be from the Jewish translation at chabad .org

"
1And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it."

As you all can see nothing about messiah in the verse

5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

No leader can bring peace until he is recognized as a leader. bringing peace is not a requirement for being considered a leader . it is what leaders can do and in messiah's case will do when he is already a leader. this is clear in micah 4:3 if Gary bothered to read it before copying and pasting

"3And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore."

Garry and company are hopelessly confused. What a king does in his reign is what he does when he reigns NOT a qualification for him to reign in the first place. This should be obvious to anyone.

6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

as i have stated it goes well beyond this. He must be looked from the world over by gentile nations as a figure who they would gather to and which other Jewish man, born as Daniel 9 requires before the fall of the second temple, qualifies for this??

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd , and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant

Again pretty silly reasoning that should be obvious to anyone of reasonable intelligence. being king CANNOT be a qualification for being king. think about it. Its asinine. no one can be king until they are fully instituted as king so its not a qualification or a criteria for being king . think Gary think. That's merely stating what messiah will do when he is instituted as king.

Jesus failed several of the messianic requirements but the most obvious is that he was not a descendent of David and Solomon through his father's line, since he allegedly had no father

Jesus failed no messianic requirement and there is no requirement in the law for a king to be descended on his father's side. The prophecies merely state he is to be a seed of David. Messiah is to be a king after the example of David and David was a descendant of no earthly king on his father's side . Startling fact that the anti missionary Jews miss entirely. IF it were true that a king had to always be chosen from a king's family then David COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN CHOSEN KING.

He was NOT Saul's son and the Bible is extremely clear on that. another fail on Gary's part

In fact there is no requirement in the law regarding a king AT ALL because the Jews were NEVER SUPPOSED to have a man king to begin with. God and god alone was to be there king but they rejected him. Zechariah 14 suggest s that god will again be the only king. IN Christ God takes back the throne rather than God committing himself to live with the sin of their rejecting him as their only king forever.

SO sorry gary when your anti missionary Jewish friends can explain how David (who messiah is supposed to be derived from in body and in kingship style ) was anointed king of Israel with no earthly male line of descendancy from a king then they can claim what they are claiming. Until then this gentile knows more about their history of kings than they do.

I realize that Christians have come up with some of the most stupefying harmonizations for this messianic fail on Jesus part but Jews don't buy them.

I realize you are stupefied by not even reading some of the verse you gave and your own ignorance but you have failed again based on the facts.