Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Apologiaphoenix]

Gary thinks those words describe us! Is he from the Bizarro universe?

It is impossible for Gary to be wrong since, well, he's Gary, so it must be all of us. There is nothing to learn. No discussion to have. We all must just get in line.

[Gary]

After some time to cool down and reflect, it was wrong for me to use the term I did for CBW. I apologize to her and to everyone for using it.

[Apologiaphoenix]

And for that, I think respect points go up. Good on you.

[rogue06]

After some time to cool down and reflect, it was wrong for me to use the term I did for CBW. I apologize to her and to everyone for using it.

[RumTumTugger]

After some time to cool down and reflect, it was wrong for me to use the term I did for CBW. I apologize to her and to everyone for using it.

Good for you.

[37818]

I completely agree.

With the reference? John 7:16-17?

Once again, I am not saying that reading and studying the books of NT scholars is a worthless endeavor. If one is interested in understanding the beliefs of early Christians, then it is absolutely necessary to read what scholars say on this subject. But that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the supernatural claim of the reanimation of a brain dead body that three days later exits its tomb in a superhero, immortal body and flies off into outer space.

No one needs to read one single sentence of one single book to NOT believe this supernatural claim. It is so far fetched and preposterous that it isn't worth spending five seconds investigating it. Brain dead bodies do not come back to life. Human bodies cannot walk through locked doors. Human bodies do not levitate into outer space. These kinds of extraordinary claims would require very, very extraordinary evidence. If Christians need to write entire books to explain why we should believe this outrageous claim that is evidence that not only do they not have extraordinary evidence, their evidence is so weak that they must write an entire book to "spin" together a collection of hearsay and assumptions to pass off as evidence.

You don't need to be a scholar nor do you need to read a scholar's book to know that dead bodies cannot be reanimated to fly off into outer space!

Genuine Christianity is a paranormal supernatural faith.

Genuine Christians know God and by knowing God through faith in His Son and so have eternal life by knowing God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20, 9-13).

[Gary]

With the reference? John 7:16-17?
Genuine Christianity is a paranormal supernatural faith.

Genuine Christians know God and by knowing God through faith in His Son and so have eternal life by knowing God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20, 9-13).

I have no issue with believing things by faith, even supernatural things.

My issue is when conservative Christians tell the rest of the world that conservative Christianity has non-faith based evidence that proves that their supernatural-based belief system is the one and only truth; that as the one and only truth, everyone who refuses to believe it and abide by its rules, faces punishment in this world and/or the next; and that secular laws must conform to this supernatural belief system.

It is this mentality that "we are right, everyone else is wrong (and evil), and everyone else is going to be punished for being wrong" that I find so offensive. It is this attitude that has been the cause of so much discrimination, persecution, and even bloodshed.

It is my sincere hope that all Christians will come to accept faith as the basis for their supernatural beliefs, and not attempt to prove the existence of evidence for this 2,000 year old supernatural claim. I wish Christians would say this: "I believe in the resurrected Jesus by faith. The existence or non-existence of evidence for his resurrection is irrelevant to me. I feel Jesus in my heart. My belief in him gives me peace and comfort. I don't believe that God will punish anyone for not believing. I choose to believe, by faith, and due to my faith in Jesus, to treat everyone around me, Christian and non-Christian, with the same love and compassion as did Jesus."

Wow. I would be sincerely impressed.

[tabibito]

I have no issue with believing things by faith, even supernatural things.

My issue is when conservative Christians tell the rest of the world that conservative Christianity has non-faith based evidence that proves that their supernatural-based belief system is the one and only truth; that as the one and only truth, everyone who refuses to believe it and abide by its rules, faces punishment in this world and/or the next; and that secular laws must conform to this supernatural belief system.

It is this mentality that "we are right, everyone else is wrong (and evil), and everyone else is going to be punished for being wrong" that I find so offensive. It is this attitude that has been the cause of so much discrimination, persecution, and even bloodshed.

It is my sincere hope that all Christians will come to accept faith as the basis for their supernatural beliefs, and not attempt to prove the existence of evidence for this 2,000 year old supernatural claim. I wish Christians would say this: "I believe in the resurrected Jesus by faith. The existence or non-existence of evidence for his resurrection is irrelevant to me. I feel Jesus in my heart. My belief in him gives me peace and comfort. I don't believe that God will punish anyone for not believing. I choose to believe, by faith, and due to my faith in Jesus, to treat everyone around me, Christian and non-Christian, with the same love and compassion as did Jesus."

Wow. I would be sincerely impressed.

In short: you would be impressed by a lie!? Why would we tell people that there are no consequences for their choices? There are a number of Christians who have directly evidenced knowledge of the existence of God. (and sadly there is a good percentage of that number who don't allow the fact to influence their attitudes and behaviour). For those who have performed miracles in the name of Christ or witnessed miracles, the existence of God is not based on belief, but on evidence. The whole, "God is loyal to those who love him, righteous, merciful etc." bit - that is a matter of faith, certainly.

[Mikeenders]

It is this mentality that "we are right, everyone else is wrong (and evil), and everyone else is going to be punished for being wrong" that I find so offensive. It is this attitude that has been the cause of so much discrimination, persecution, and even bloodshed.

mythical nonsense (but a common skeptic canard). Lack of adhering to Christian principles ( by those who claim to be Christian and those who don't) has been the cause of persecution and bloodshed. Skepticism and naturalism has not given us one single moral principle. The historical record of Christianity to help feed the hungry, heal the sick through the establishment of hospitals, bring law and order to the world, assist the poor, stand for the oppressed , establish ethical morals and better mankind dwarfs any attempt you try to pin Christianity with atrocities. You are going to be punished for being wrong if you don't repent but the reason you can't do anything logical with that statement to claim that it leads to persecution or bloodshed is that Christianity is EXTREMELY clear that its not the job of any human to administer that punishment and whoever thinks that way would be violating Christian teaching.

It is my sincere hope that all Christians will come to accept faith as the basis for their supernatural beliefs, and not attempt to prove the existence of evidence for this 2,000 year old supernatural claim.

As they say "if wishes were horses beggars would ride". The fact that you misrepresent the basis for Christianity as purely an appeal to the resurrection won't make ANY Christian abandon proving the existence of evidence (in fact it just inspires more of us to actively engage in just that). Thats especially the case since the logical extension of naturalism has it relying on the supernatural as well.The whole problem with your anti supernatural rants Gary is that the best logic and science tells us there was at least one beyond this universe event in the history of the universe. On logical grounds we already know that everything cannot have a cause and that means naturalism CANNOT be all there is. You try to avoid that fact by claiming that we jut don't know yet so you can avoid dealing with the fact that we do.

Just about every explanation by skeptics for the reality of this universe invokes what by any definition ends up being supernatural. Multiverses appeal to other realities outside our present universe, quantum everything out of nothing invokes a law without any thing being present and infinitely old universes have no cause. This is what DESTROYS your claims against the supernatural. It even destroys your own faulty if something never happened then its unlikely to happen philosophy. If even one supernatural event took place (and we KNOW it did even if you won't admit it) then theres no logical grounds to say it can only happen once and only one particular way.

I would be sincerely impressed.

I'd be impressed if you actually dealt with a counterpoint rather than 300+ pages of pontificating around them.

[Gary]

In short: you would be impressed by a lie!? Why would we tell people that there are no consequences for their choices? There are a number of Christians who have directly evidenced knowledge of the existence of God. (and sadly there is a good percentage of that number who don't allow the fact to influence their attitudes and behaviour). For those who have performed miracles in the name of Christ or witnessed miracles, the existence of God is not based on belief, but on evidence. The whole, "God is loyal to those who love him, righteous, merciful etc." bit - that is a matter of faith, certainly.

How do you know that Jesus was responsible for your miracle or any miracle?

[Gary]

mythical nonsense (but a common skeptic canard). Lack of adhering to Christian principles ( by those who claim to be Christian and those who don't) has been the cause of persecution and bloodshed. Skepticism and naturalism has not given us one single moral principle. The historical record of Christianity to help feed the hungry, heal the sick through the establishment of hospitals, bring law and order to the world, assist the poor, stand for the oppressed , establish ethical morals and better mankind dwarfs any attempt you try to pin Christianity with atrocities. You are going to be punished for being wrong if you don't repent but the reason you can't do anything logical with that statement to claim that it leads to persecution or bloodshed is that Christianity is EXTREMELY clear that its not the job of any human to administer that punishment and whoever thinks that way would be violating Christian teaching.



As they say "if wishes were horses beggars would ride". The fact that you misrepresent the basis for Christianity as purely an appeal to the resurrection won't make ANY Christian abandon proving the existence of evidence (in fact it just inspires more of us to actively engage in just that). Thats especially the case since the logical extension of naturalism has it relying on the supernatural as well.The whole problem with your anti supernatural rants Gary is that the best logic and science tells us there was at least one beyond this universe event in the history of the universe. On logical grounds we already know that everything cannot have a cause and that means naturalism CANNOT be all there is. You try to avoid that fact by claiming that we jut don't know yet so you can avoid dealing with the fact that we do.

Just about every explanation by skeptics for the reality of this universe invokes what by any definition ends up being supernatural. Multiverses appeal to other realities outside our present universe, quantum everything out of nothing invokes a law without any thing being present and infinitely old universes have no cause. This is what DESTROYS your claims against the supernatural. It even destroys your own faulty if something never happened then its unlikely to happen philosophy. If even one supernatural event took place (and we KNOW it did even if you won't admit it) then theres no logical grounds to say it can only happen once and only one particular way.



I'd be impressed if you actually dealt with a counterpoint rather than 300+ pages of pontificating around them.

I have never claimed that the supernatural does not exist. What I have said is that supernatural explanations for real world events are the least likely of all probable causes based on cumulative human experience. If you wake up to find your keys missing tomorrow morning, the last thing that you will assume happened to your keys is that an invisible being walked through your locked front door in the middle of the night and made off with your keys. This is the same logic I apply to the claim of Jesus' bodily resurrection. Yes, it could have happened, but there are many more probable explanations for the facts before jumping to this very improbable conclusion.

Most skeptics do not deny the possibility that a god created the universe. What most of us say is: We don't know yet the origin of the universe, but let's not automatically jump to 'a god did it' when that premature conclusion has been wrong many times before. It is possible the universe was created by a god, but it is also possible that there is some other explanation.

[Mikeenders]

After some time to cool down and reflect, it was wrong for me to use the term I did for CBW. I apologize to her and to everyone for using it.

Well just in case you heat up again i think you should realize something . You are probably getting heated because you had false expectation. You seem to think that everyone's responses to arguments you have and that you have read should be like your own. You are really ignoring where you are. christian forums like Tweb and other places where skeptics and atheists are allowed to register and post get hammered repeatedly by both. You are not the first and you won't be the last. As such I would bet most people here have heard it all before and rather than needing to open their eyes which you think are shut they already have dealt with them some of us even decades ago.

Yes if you tell some Christians about variant NT manuscripts, alleged contradictions they might be amazed but a lot of us have had Bibles (pretty popular ones too) that openly and upfront note these things (like the ending of mark and the triune confession in 1 john). However at any rate Tweb participants are not going to be among them. Given the way atheists and skeptics like to come on boards and attack Christians, coming here expecting that you are informing them of things they don't know and don't already have answers for is like going to the front lines of a war and trying to inform the soldiers of what a bullet is.

[tabibito]

How do you know that Jesus was responsible for your miracle or any miracle?

I have already given you enough information that you can answer the question yourself. If I see some serious attempt on your part to do so, assuming that you can't get the answer, I will provide it.

[Mikeenders]

I have never claimed that the supernatural does not exist. What I have said is that supernatural explanations for real world events are the least likely of all probable causes based on cumulative human experience. If you wake up to find your keys missing tomorrow morning, the last thing that you will assume happened to your keys is that an invisible being walked through your locked front door in the middle of the night and made off with your keys. This is the same logic I apply to the claim of Jesus' bodily resurrection. Yes, it could have happened, but there are many more probable explanations for the facts before jumping to this very improbable conclusion.

Because your keys have nothing to do with the supernatural or God. You continue to use poor analogies. No one is claiming miracles are everyday so analogies to every day events don't form any parrallel. You also continue to dodge the context. lets say you are told you will find a car at a particular spot with keys in it. You go and find it and you are told it will break down exactly at the corner of 8th street and ninth avenue of your city and that a blue tow truck driven by a brunette in a plaid shirt will tow it home and charge you $53. All of this and more happens as prophecied. Finally you are told the person telling you all of this will come into your house and remove the keys while you sleep. You lock all the doors tight, put on the alarm, verify the keys are on the side table and go to sleep. When you wake up the next morning (and living alone ) they are gone and all doors are still shut. Why should you discount that yet another prophecy has come true? `Add a few more prophecies to it and all that stops you from accepting the reality of the supernatural is in fact YES your disbelief in the supernatural.

you continue to try and misrepresent that Christianity starts out with and is based on the resurrection when its not. The title Christ makes it very clear it does not start with Jesus but a context before him which you always ignore. Put the context around your key analogy and it falls apart.

Most skeptics do not deny the possibility that a god created the universe. What most of us say is: We don't know yet the origin of the universe, but let's not automatically jump to 'a god did it' when that premature conclusion has been wrong many times before. It is possible the universe was created by a god, but it is also possible that there is some other explanation.

Forget the cliched atheist nonsense that everyone that references the supernatural is saying God did it. We've heard it all before. Stop thinking in generalizations and cliches. It doesn't advance any decent discussion . No one said anything about "God did it". We are at that point not talking about what the identity of the supernatural is but the the reality of ANY supernatural explanation. We do know and your claiming we don't as i said is just a dodge.

All science and logic tells us that

A) the universe either had a beginning
B) or its infinitely old

A thousand years from now or a million those are the only two options. claiming we just don't know that now is just trying to escape reason and reality.

if the universe has a beginning then that beginning was not from a natural cause because natural refers to whats in our universe. Going outside our universe and claiming its natural is gibberish. so choose A and you are buying into the supernatural

Choose B and an infinitely old universe has no ultimate cause (thats the whole idea behind infinitely - its endless). NO one in their right mind would claim that something that happens for no cause is a natural event as we understand it.

do we know all the specifics from this? nope. but claiming we do not know this general reality of choices now is just dodging the facts and denying where science has already led us..

[Mikeenders]

but let's not automatically jump to 'a god did it' when that premature conclusion has been wrong many times before.

Since you brought it up.....When??

Judaism and Christianity both teach the world and universe operates by laws of God. Where and when has this been proven wrong "many times before". You've been listening to too much Neil Tyson strawmen statements.