Originally posted by Gary
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Darth Ovious View PostYou ignored the reasoning given why. If the gospels were anonymous in the way you suggest then we would have different names attributed to them. The gospel of Mark for instance would have several different names against it instead i.e. Mark Matthew, Peter, Thomas, etc, etc. Other historical documents that were anonymous in the sense that you say show this.
Christians have no proof whatsoever of the traditional authorship of the Gospels. They base this entire belief upon vague comments made by Papias circa 120 AD that someone had told him that someone had told them that John Mark had written down some of Peter's sermons and that Matthew had written a gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic. The overwhelming majority of scholars do NOT believe that the Gospel of Matthew is a translation from Hebrew or Greek. Papias was either wrong or Matthew wrote another gospel which no longer exists.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostAnd the one referred to in the crucifixion story is the day of preparation for the Passover - Passover itself being a Sabbath.
It is clear from the text that the Synoptics have Jesus die on Friday and the Gospel of John has him dying on Thursday. The Synoptics use the Day of Preparation in reference to the day prior to the Sabbath, whereas John uses that term in reference to Thursday, the day prior to the Passover Sabbath, which in that year was on Friday.Last edited by Gary; 09-10-2015, 10:08 AM.
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The synoptics do NOT have a different day to that recorded by John.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostJust goes to show you the dangers of perfunctory examination - it can mislead people into making inane pronouncements that serve no better purpose than to destroy their own credibility.
Each of the gospels identifies the day of the crucifixion as the day of preparation - Passover Seder is taken with the commencement of the SABBATH day of Passover week. The day commences with sunset. Under the Hebrew system during the first century, "evening" extended from roughly 3pm til 6pm.
Jhn 19:14-18a14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover 15 16 Then he delivered Him to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led Him away 17 And He, bearing His cross, went out to a place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha 18 where they crucified Him ...
Luke 23:46,54He breathed His last. .... 54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.
Mark 15:3737,42 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. 42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
Matthew 27:35, 6235 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: 62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate,Originally posted by 37818 View PostCareful reading of the texts the day of preparation before the weekly Sabbath began at the evening following that day Christ was crucified. And each morning that passover week there was preparation for that daily sacrifice (see Ezekiel 45:21-23; Numbers 28:16-24).Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe day of Passover is a High Sabbath (that is: not the weekly Sabbath - though it may fall on the same day). In the ordinary course, it was referred to as the Sabbath or Pesach.
But there is no need to make guesses about the particular Sabbath being referred to:
John 19:14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he (Pilate) saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!Luke 22:7Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Gary View PostWe have ZERO evidence that the four gospels had name tags. Zero. During the early second century, Church Fathers such as Polycarp and Justin Martyr quote passages from the books which we now refer to as the Gospels, but NO ONE identifies them by name. No one quotes from these texts and identifies them by author until Irenaeus in the late second century.
Christians have no proof whatsoever of the traditional authorship of the Gospels. They base this entire belief upon vague comments made by Papias circa 120 AD that someone had told him that someone had told them that John Mark had written down some of Peter's sermons and that Matthew had written a gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic. The overwhelming majority of scholars do NOT believe that the Gospel of Matthew is a translation from Hebrew or Greek. Papias was either wrong or Matthew wrote another gospel which no longer exists.
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Originally posted by Darth Ovious View PostSo basically another post from you detailing that you don't know how history works. Scholars of history have been able to identify other authors of works under the same circumstances of the gospels, actually with even lesser evidence than the gospels. Your insistence otherwise says a lot about you. The zero evidence claim you cite is based upon the fact that again ignored what I told you already. It's not my fault if you keep ignoring what people say to you and refuse to acknowledge evidence while shouting "you dumb Christians don't have any evidence". There really is no point in you being here. You're not interested in a conversation at all.Last edited by Gary; 09-10-2015, 11:28 AM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostAsk Nick and Stein if they agree with you.
The differing day of the crucifixion between the Synoptics and John is pretty well settled.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe fact that even Nick and Stein disagree with you says a lot about the shaky evidence for your fundamentalist position.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostNo. He's right on that claim. Other "anonymous" works are established on less evidence.
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Originally posted by Darth Ovious View PostThe disagreement we had was based upon my use of the term authorship. If I'm correct then I think Nick believes that the origins of the accounts are not in question.
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One extra piece of information is relevant to the discussion about the day of preparation which resolves the apparent conflict between John's account and Mark 14:17 -
opsios.jpgAttached FilesLast edited by tabibito; 09-10-2015, 12:15 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostOne extra piece of information is relevant to the discussion about the day of preparation which resolves the apparent conflict between John's account and Mark 14:17 -
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You guys are always filleting me for not used scholarship for my positions (which I have shown is a false accusation), but yet you are taking a position against the majority scholarly opinion on this discrepancy. Why?
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Originally posted by Gary View PostTabby,
You guys are always filleting me for not used scholarship for my positions (which I have shown is a false accusation), but yet you are taking a position against the majority scholarly opinion on this discrepancy. Why?
ETA - There is no scholarly consensus on the issue of the apparent discrepancies in the timing of the crucifixion - there are competing reconciliations of the conflict. And the conflict arises for the most part from a failure to conduct simple reading comprehension tests. A small amount can be attributed to perfectly understandable, natural thought processes that occur for everyone.Last edited by tabibito; 09-10-2015, 12:32 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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