Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Darth Ovious]

Are you saying that one must believe in a bodily resurrection of Jesus to be a real Christian? There is a large segment of Christianity in this country that does not believe in a bodily resurrection, only a spiritual resurrection. Are you saying that these people aren't real Christians?

A bodily resurrection of Jesus is one of the tenants of Christian Orthodoxy. To believe otherwise means that you are an unorthodox Christian instead.

[Darth Ovious]

Ok, I'll accept your non-apology.

On the second point: You didn't answer the question: Can someone believe in a spiritual-only resurrection of Jesus, believing that his body remained dead, and still be a Christian? Someone like Bishop Spong of the Episcopal Church, for instance? My father attends a liberal Christian church, Disciples of Christ. He says that half the church council and pastors do not believe in a literal, bodily resurrection, believing that Jesus spirit rose again, not his body, and that this is a common position among liberal Christians. Are you saying that unless one believes in a literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus, one CANNOT be a true Christian?

They would be certainly unorthodox. Lets put it this way. If a supposed scientist denied a certain tenant of science considered to be proven fact would you consider them a real scientist? Like a scientist who denies evolution or a scientist who denies climate change or perhaps a scientist who denies gravity. Would they be a real scientist to you? If not then you can see where we are coming from. The scripture is quite clear about what a resurrection is. It includes the old body of Jesus and we know this because the authorities couldn't find the old body and produce it to prove Christians wrong. Hence it makes sense that Jesus' old body must have been used in some way. Otherwise what's the point in producing a dead body to disprove the resurrection happened? It must have been understood that Jesus' old body was used in the process.

[tabibito]

He says that half the church council and pastors do not believe in a literal, bodily resurrection , believing that Jesus spirit rose again, not his body,

I can't see any way to make it possible for such a teaching to be consistent with Christianity. Nor can I see any way to make the tenet arise from a failure in comprehension. Everything points to an intentional teaching known to be false (on the part of the originator(s) of the tenet).

[Gary]

You're using Spong as a source? I can't decide if that's funny or sad.

You are still avoiding the question: Can someone be a real Christian (someone whose soul has been redeemed by Jesus's atonement) if he or she believes that Jesus' resurrection was spiritual in nature only; believes Jesus body is still dead?

[Gary]

A bodily resurrection of Jesus is one of the tenants of Christian Orthodoxy. To believe otherwise means that you are an unorthodox Christian instead.

Yes, but can someone be a true child of God, bound for an eternity in heaven, if he or she believes that Jesus' was only resurrected spiritually, not physically?

[Christianbookworm]

You are still avoiding the question: Can someone be a real Christian (someone whose soul has been redeemed by Jesus's atonement) if he or she believes that Jesus' resurrection was spiritual in nature only; believes Jesus body is still dead?

Ever heard of 1 Corinthians chapter 15?

[b]

I even picked the easy to read version!

[tabibito]

8 Last of all, he appeared to me. I was different, like a baby born before the normal time.

lilim21.jpg

[Christianbookworm]

8 Last of all, he appeared to me. I was different, like a baby born before the normal time.

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Most translations use abnormally born or something like that. I don't know what the pic means.

[Gary]

Are you aware of how long it takes for someone to die of crucifixion? Usually days. No one is going to die within a few hours because a couple of nails are stuck in his hands and feet. Death from crucifixion occurs by asphyxiation. The way to hasten death is to break the victim's legs. The Bible says that not a bone in Jesus' body was broken. How is it then that Jesus died so quickly? Some may say that he didn't really die, but I will say that this evidence is just one piece of evidence in a long list of evidence that most of the stories in the Gospels are embellished concoctions.

Jesus lived. Jesus was a preacher. Jesus was crucified.

That is all we really can know about this man. The rest is all conjecture.

[tabibito]

It means

"Untimely birth" can go to either "born too soon" or "miscarriage", or "born after due time" ... but very few Koine Greek dictionaries make mention of the "born after due time" - it's a trip to a comprehensive dictionary (BDAG for example) to find it.

[tabibito]

Are you aware of how long it takes for someone to die of crucifixion? Usually days. No one is going to die within a few hours because a couple of nails are stuck in his hands and feet. Death from crucifixion occurs by asphyxiation. The way to hasten death is to break the victim's legs. The Bible says that not a bone in Jesus' body was broken. How is it then that Jesus died so quickly? Some may say that he didn't really die, but I will say that this evidence is just one piece of evidence in a long list of evidence that most of the stories in the Gospels are embellished concoctions.

Jesus lived. Jesus was a preacher. Jesus was crucified.

That is all we really can know about this man. The rest is all conjecture.

After a flogging? A person could be forgiven for thinking that it would be expected, if Pilate hadn't expressed surprise at how quickly Jesus had died.

The only conjecture that I can see is attempts by denialists to rationalise the facts out of existence.

Oh - and by the way: the picture is wrong: those nails are supposed to be located at the wrists, not in the palms. The descriptive words in Koine Greek are a tad different from the words used in English. So - even if the pic originated with a Christian artist .... whoever used it didn't do his homework.

[One Bad Pig]

After a flogging? A person could be forgiven for thinking that it would be expected, if Pilate hadn't expressed surprise at how quickly Jesus had died.

The only conjecture that I can see is attempts by denialists to rationalise the facts out of existence.

"He survived!" is sort of a far cry from "He is risen!" And it assumes that the Roman soldiers carrying out the execution didn't know what death looked like. Further, even if he did survive being crucified and taken down, that he'd be walking around with no ill effects 3 days later would be nearly as miraculous an event; as Josephus recounts, people who were taken down before death tended to die shortly thereafter anyway.

I'm not sure Gary could find a less accurate portrayal of the crucifixion if he tried.

[Gary]

After a flogging? A person could be forgiven for thinking that it would be expected, if Pilate hadn't expressed surprise at how quickly Jesus had died.

The only conjecture that I can see is attempts by denialists to rationalise the facts out of existence.

Oh - and by the way: the picture is wrong: those nails are supposed to be located at the wrists, not in the palms. The descriptive words in Koine Greek are a tad different from the words used in English. So - even if the pic originated with a Christian artist .... whoever used it didn't do his homework.

So what if the nails in the video are in the wrong place. The point is that no one is going to die of nail holes in three or six or even nine hours. Jesus may well have been crucified but all the other details in the Gospels such as when he died, the three hours of darkness, etc. etc. is most likely embellishment. And Stein can harp all he wants about the historicity of Arimethea's tomb, but the fact that it is not mentioned in even one public university history text is proof of just how "strong" his claim is.

The Gospels are not to be trusted as historically reliable sources. They are theological texts written for theological purposes, not as historically accurate biographies.

[tabibito]

"He survived!" is sort of a far cry from "He is risen!" And it assumes that the Roman soldiers carrying out the execution didn't know what death looked like. Further, even if he did survive being crucified and taken down, that he'd be walking around with no ill effects 3 days later would be nearly as miraculous an event; as Josephus recounts, people who were taken down before death tended to die shortly thereafter anyway.

I'm not sure Gary could find a less accurate portrayal of the crucifixion if he tried.

The soldier ran him through with a spear ... water and blood came out. That happens if a person is dead - blood solids partially separated from plasma. And it was worthy of comment - he hadn't been dead long enough for the process to be so far advanced.

[tabibito]

So what if the nails in the video are in the wrong place. The point is that no one is going to die of nail holes in three or six or even nine hours. Jesus may well have been crucified but all the other details in the Gospels such as when he died, the three hours of darkness, etc. etc. is most likely embellishment. And Stein can harp all he wants about the historicity of Arimethea's tomb, but the fact that it is not mentioned in even one public university history text is proof of just how "strong" his claim is.

The Gospels are not to be trusted as historically reliable sources. They are theological texts written for theological purposes, not as historically accurate biographies.

It matters because it shows the person who used the picture exercised no scholarship - which is a typical procedure for the materials you reference so often. In normal circumstances, the location of the nails wouldn't be an issue ... but in the use made of that picture, it purports to be supportive of a sound argument. In reality, all it does is call into question the competence of the person who produced it.

Just as a matter of interest - do any of these scholarly texts of yours make any mention that these claims have been made in the Bible?