Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Christianbookworm]

Someone has lied to you, Tabby. Someone has told you a terrible lie. Someone has lied to you that the bright, warm light is your friend. That it is protecting you.

It is not your friend, Tabby. Don't go into the light, Tabby! The light is evil...

Are you unable to keep the people you're responding to straight? I'm CBW, not tab.

[Gary]

Are you unable to keep the people you're responding to straight? I'm CBW, not tab.

Sorry, Wormy. I was rattled. The light REALLY scared me. :)

[Christianbookworm]

Sorry, Wormy. I was rattled. The light REALLY scared me. :)

Don't worry, you don't have to be where the light is. You can stay very far away and be annoyed that you don't get to live in an awesome utopia.

[One Bad Pig]

Neither the RCC nor the EOC believes in an Age of Accountability.

More false than true. RCC - ever hear of confirmation? EOC - children under 7-ish are considered innocent. That's about the age they start going to confession.

Both the RCC and the EOC believe that Baptism saves sinners.
Both the RCC and the EOC believe that good works assist, and are a necessary part, in one's salvation.

Only one of these statements can be true - either baptism alone saves, or good works are a necessary assistance.

Your belief system is one of your own imagination/invention. And how many more Protestants have invented their own belief system? Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, most likely. This is why the 33,000 figure I quoted above is incorrect...the number should be much higher! In today's Protestant Christianity the Church is not the highest authority. And neither is the Bible the highest authority. The INDIVIDUAL believer who is the highest authority. This is why Slick Nick can berate me for not accepting the majority scholarly opinion regarding the empty tomb but feel fully justified in disagreeing with the majority of scholars on other issues. NICK is the highest authority...to Nick.

Your characterizations of Christianity are of your own imagination. You seem to be operating under the principle that quantity beats quality, however. It takes some chutzpah to accuse others of using smoke and mirrors when that's your own modus operandi.

[tabibito]

Both the RCC and the EOC believe that Baptism saves sinners.
Both the RCC and the EOC believe that good works assist, and are a necessary part, in one's salvation.

Only one of these statements can be true - either baptism alone saves, or good works are a necessary assistance.

Not necessarily true - Baptism can be classified as a work, no?

Acts 22:16

wash away

"wash away" is middle voice, which is most commonly used as a causative, or a not quite passive by the time the Bible was written - only occasionally as an intransitive: the most common use in Classical Greek. So - "get your sins washed away" is nuanced much as "(see to it that you) get your car washed."

But "Faith saves" doesn't preclude other factors - there is a commonly held belief that "Faith saves" = "Faith alone saves." That precept floats about as effectively as a lead collander.

[One Bad Pig]

Not necessarily true - Baptism can be classified as a work, no?

Acts 22:16

wash away

"wash away" is middle voice, which is most commonly used as a causative, or a not quite passive by the time the Bible was written - only occasionally as an intransitive: the most common use in Classical Greek. So - "get your sins washed away" is nuanced much as "(see to it that you) get your car washed."

If you're going to be pedantic, then baptism is a single work, not works.

But "Faith saves" doesn't preclude other factors - there is a commonly held belief that "Faith saves" = "Faith alone saves." That precept floats about as effectively as a lead collander.

Have you met obsidian?

From my perspective, if one is (being) saved, good works are ineluctably going to be performed.

[Gary]

The fact of the matter is that Christians have been trying to decipher "God's" message of salvation ever since Jesus started talking in riddles in Galilee. The disciples didn't understand then and Christians today still can't agree upon it. A loving, compassionate, just, merciful, all-knowing God would not send such a garbled message. If he truly loves us, he would make sure that every human being received his message in a very clear, concise way. In fact, if the Bible is true, he has the power to appear, in person, to each one of us.

Christians try to "spin" the lack of coherency and clarity of this all-important message by saying that God wants us to seek him, as if God is hiding from us. They say God only wants those who spend a lot of effort finding him to be saved. Would a just God play "Cat and Mouse" or "Hide and Seek"? However, the same Bible turns around and says that "no one seeks God". It's a preposterous, contradictory belief system.

The god of the Old Testament, Yahweh, doesn't exist. He is the invention of superstitious, ancient nomads trying to make sense of a scary world. There very well may be a Creator, but he is not Yahweh. Yahweh has been proven just as false and non-existent as Ra, Zeus, and Jupiter.

Jesus and Yahweh are not one. Jesus never treated people as the Bible describes Yahweh treated people. Jesus was kind, generous, giving, and compassionate. Jesus was a good man. A good man that all of us today should try to emulate. But he was not Yahweh.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Oh boy. NoSco! Scraping the bottom of the barrel eh?

Here's an interview with Matthew Flannagan on this topic: http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...wFlannagan.mp3

Here's one with Paul Copan. http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...9PaulCopan.mp3

Really. Try to come up with some kind of objection that hasn't been addressed a bijillion times. Okay?

[Christianbookworm]

Nosco!

[Apologiaphoenix]

Drink!

[Gary]

Oh boy. NoSco! Scraping the bottom of the barrel eh?

Here's an interview with Matthew Flannagan on this topic: http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...wFlannagan.mp3

Here's one with Paul Copan. http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...9PaulCopan.mp3

Really. Try to come up with some kind of objection that hasn't been addressed a bijillion times. Okay?

The foolishness and absurdity of your belief system has been pointed out to you many times, Slick Nick. Instead of facing reality, you cower behind philosophical silliness to prop up this ancient superstition. You are attempting to fool others, but it is you that is being fooled, my friend. If you obtain a PhD in voodoo it doesn't make you any smarter about reality, just an expert is superstitious nonsense. That is what your belief is, Nick: superstitious nonsense. One does not need to be an expert in superstitions to know that superstitions are nonsense. Just as the small child was able to instantly recognize that the Emperor was buck naked, so too can anyone with a sixth grade education instantly see that your belief system is nonsense. Virgins do not have babies. Dead people do not eat broiled fish lunches. People do not levitate into outer space.

Your belief system is an ancient Sci-Fi story. It isn't real, Nicky. It is just a story, written by superstitious peoples, about a non-existent Hebrew god Yahweh and his alleged virgin-born, man/god son. It's silly. Silly, silly, silly. I don't need to debate you about your "evidence" anymore than the child in the story of the Emperor without any Clothes needs to debate the "tailors" about the existence of invisible thread. Both your god and invisible thread do NOT exist.

Repeat: Your god and invisible thread do NOT exist.

Keep saying that over and over, Nick, and one day it will click in your brain that it is the truth.

[Christianbookworm]

Hey, a virgin can definitely have a baby. You just need some in vitro fertilization(in a petri dish or Fallopian tube).

[Apologiaphoenix]

Gary says he's interested in evidence, but when presented with leading scholars who argue against his view, he prefers we go with some guy on YouTube who we've already responded to.

Gary's just a fundamentalist whose switched sides. He didn't know how to analyze an argument before and he doesn't know how to do so now.

If Gary doesn't overcome his ego and return to Christianity, I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. His bad argumentation is quite likely to draw more and more people to Christianity.

[tabibito]

Much as I detest podcasts - that was actually worth all the agony.

So - God commanded genocide. It then is a matter of faith that there is some over-ride to the general principle that genocide is wrong, and which God is competent to evaluate. That seems to me a reasonable position to hold. I can't think of any circumstances that would make genocide acceptable - so I'm not going to try to advance an example in support of the proposition. This simply comes down to vesting trust in God and in his somewhat superior ability to exercise a proper judgement.

[Christianbookworm]

Much as I detest podcasts - that was actually worth all the agony.

So - God commanded genocide. It then is a matter of faith that there is some over-ride to the general principle that genocide is wrong, and which God is competent to evaluate. That seems to me a reasonable position to hold. I can't think of any circumstances that would make genocide acceptable - so I'm not going to try to advance an example in support of the proposition. This simply comes down to vesting trust in God and in his somewhat superior ability to exercise a proper judgement.

It's complicated. You can check out some articles on Christianthinktank if you're interested. It was war in ancient times, not genocide per se.