Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

Source: Dictionary Tooltip

n.
1. a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; denomination.

© Copyright Original Source

Do you enjoy making yourself look stupid?


No, that's still stretching things a bit.

Not especially. While there are fringe groups that differ significantly from the norm, the beliefs of most groups differ only in minor detail. Jaroslav Pelikan, when editing his massive three-volume Creeds and Confessions of Faith in the Christian Tradition, observed that he kept asking himself while proofing the work, "have I read this before?" because they tended to be so difficult to distinguish en masse.

Or, as is usual with your proffered choices, none of the above.

Let's test your assertion: Please answer this question with a concise response: How is one assured of eternal salvation?

[psstein]

"Bronze Age Goat Herders," "Bloodthirsty Tyrant," poor understanding of what Christian denominations actually believe. Yeah, we've ourselves a real live fundy atheist here.

What of Christians who reject Reformed Epistemology, like most Catholics and Orthodox Christians?

It's really simple. Gary doesn't know what he's talking about. He somehow thinks that rhetorical appeals to Hell and "evil YHWH" are actual arguments against Christianity. Somebody call me when someone with a brain is arguing against Christianity.

[rogue06]

Let's test your assertion: Please answer this question with a concise response: How is one assured of eternal salvation?

You could start with what Paul and Silas told their jailer in Philippi when he asked them "what must I do to be saved?" According to Acts 16 they replied "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." In Romans 10:9-10 Paul fleshes this out a bit when he wrote

Scripture Verse:

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

© Copyright Original Source

Those are the basics and pretty much what you need.

[Gary]

"Bronze Age Goat Herders," "Bloodthirsty Tyrant," poor understanding of what Christian denominations actually believe. Yeah, we've ourselves a real live fundy atheist here.

What of Christians who reject Reformed Epistemology, like most Catholics and Orthodox Christians?

It's really simple. Gary doesn't know what he's talking about. He somehow thinks that rhetorical appeals to Hell and "evil YHWH" are actual arguments against Christianity. Somebody call me when someone with a brain is arguing against Christianity.

Do you follow the teachings of the RCC, Stein, or have you invented your own denomination as has Wormy:

Here is the Roman Catholic position on Hell and a few quotes on the subject from some of the earliest Christians:

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is[I]

[Gary]

You could start with what Paul and Silas told their jailer in Philippi when he asked them "what must I do to be saved?" According to Acts 16 they replied "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." In Romans 10:9-10 Paul fleshes this out a bit when he wrote

Scripture Verse:

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

© Copyright Original Source

Those are the basics and pretty much what you need.

I at one time confessed Jesus as my Lord and believed in my heart that God had raised him from the dead, am I saved? Will I receive eternal salvation?

If you asked the Devil and his demons if they believe that Jesus is Lord and that God had raised him from the dead, don't you think they would say "yes" to both? So is belief all that is really necessary to be saved?

[rogue06]

I at one time confessed Jesus as my Lord and believed in my heart that God had raised him from the dead, am I saved? Will I receive eternal salvation?

If you asked the Devil and his demons if they believe that Jesus is Lord and that God had raised him from the dead, don't you think they would say "yes" to both? So is belief all that is really necessary to be saved?

You have since turned your back on Him and denied Him. And they say it with their mouths but reject it in their hearts.

[Gary]

You have since turned your back on Him and denied Him. And they say it with their mouths but reject it in their hearts.

Ok, so as long as I continually confess Jesus as my Lord and believe in the Resurrection, I will make it into heaven. I can rape, steal, and murder, but as long as I confess Jesus as my Lord, I will get into heaven.

[JonathanL]

Ok, so as long as I continually confess Jesus as my Lord and believe in the Resurrection, I will make it into heaven. I can rape, steal, and murder, but as long as I confess Jesus as my Lord, I will get into heaven.

That would be confessing with your lips but rejecting it in your heart.

[psstein]

Having trouble reading, I see.

"Hell is eternal separation from God."

The fixation on Hell is really quite fascinating. "I don't like it, therefore it's not true" is not an argument.

[tabibito]

Do you follow the teachings of the RCC, Stein, or have you invented your own denomination as has Wormy:

Here is the Roman Catholic position on Hell and a few quotes on the subject from some of the earliest Christians:

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Their worm. "Worm" can be symbolic of anguish, though in this case, I am satisfied that it isn't. The fire cannot be quenched - can be allegorical - trials and strife.

And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Again - they are in torment: Who inflicts it? Or is being imprisoned itself a torment?

destruction, ruin, decay - where does this verse mention Hell even? Look at every word in the sentence - where do you find the word "Hell"?

Ah - the chief punishment of Hell is having no access to any part of Heaven. I don't see any real reference there to a sadistic being inflicting torture.

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

That's true.

Indeed - the punishment (penalty of imprisonment) of Hell. So Hell is a prison ... the punishment is being sent there.

The fire is allegorical - If the fire happens to be an emotional state, no force other than the person's own perception of his circumstances is responsible for the fire.

Second Clement:

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

And as has been established from dictionary definitions - punishment doesn't mean a daily flogging or whatever. People are not sent to Hell to be punished, being sent to Hell is the punishment. And the punishment being eternal, there is no parole.

And again the fire is an allegorical state.

[tabibito]

I at one time confessed Jesus as my Lord and believed in my heart that God had raised him from the dead, am I saved? Will I receive eternal salvation?

If you asked the Devil and his demons if they believe that Jesus is Lord and that God had raised him from the dead, don't you think they would say "yes" to both? So is belief all that is really necessary to be saved?

As you have pointed out: no, no, yes, no.

Ok, so as long as I continually confess Jesus as my Lord and believe in the Resurrection, I will make it into heaven. I can rape, steal, and murder, but as long as I confess Jesus as my Lord, I will get into heaven.

Saying "Jesus is Lord" is meaningless if it is not true - it is not a confession. For people who indulge sin, Christ is not Lord - saying that he is won't change that.

[Gary]

Having trouble reading, I see.

"Hell is eternal separation from God."

The fixation on Hell is really quite fascinating. "I don't like it, therefore it's not true" is not an argument.

From the Catholic article:

"Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there.

Gary: How can you claim that the RCC teaches that Hell is simply separation from God??? Jesus said, "The fire is not quenched" which means that the fire doesn't go out. You can try to whitewash this terrible, sadistic belief all you want but Jesus' words are very, very specific and clear. The Catholic Church has always taught that people in Hell suffer terrible physical torment.

[Gary]

Their worm. "Worm" can be symbolic of anguish, though in this case, I am satisfied that it isn't. The fire cannot be quenched - can be allegorical - trials and strife.

Again - they are in torment: Who inflicts it? Or is being imprisoned itself a torment?

destruction, ruin, decay - where does this verse mention Hell even? Look at every word in the sentence - where do you find the word "Hell"?

Ah - the chief punishment of Hell is having no access to any part of Heaven. I don't see any real reference there to a sadistic being inflicting torture.

That's true.

Indeed - the punishment (penalty of imprisonment) of Hell. So Hell is a prison ... the punishment is being sent there.

The fire is allegorical - If the fire happens to be an emotional state, no force other than the person's own perception of his circumstances is responsible for the fire.


And as has been established from dictionary definitions - punishment doesn't mean a daily flogging or whatever. People are not sent to Hell to be punished, being sent to Hell is the punishment. And the punishment being eternal, there is no parole.

And again the fire is an allegorical state.

Yes, Slick Willy: "Is" doesn't really mean "is".

[Gary]

As you have pointed out: no, no, yes, no.

Saying "Jesus is Lord" is meaningless if it is not true - it is not a confession. For people who indulge sin, Christ is not Lord - saying that he is won't change that.

So if I indulge in sin, I lose my salvation, even if I haven't specifically rejected Jesus as my Lord, and, I still confess (publically declare) him as my Lord?

[Gary]

"Bronze Age Goat Herders," "Bloodthirsty Tyrant," poor understanding of what Christian denominations actually believe. Yeah, we've ourselves a real live fundy atheist here.

What of Christians who reject Reformed Epistemology, like most Catholics and Orthodox Christians?

It's really simple. Gary doesn't know what he's talking about. He somehow thinks that rhetorical appeals to Hell and "evil YHWH" are actual arguments against Christianity. Somebody call me when someone with a brain is arguing against Christianity.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...sm/p123a12.htm

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

(Gary: The Holy Mother Church may consider separation from God to be the "chief punishment", but I will bet that most people would consider the eternal fire the Church refers to in this paragraph to be equally, if not more, painful!)

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

***Gary: Dear Stein: So if you tell me one more time that the Catholic Church does not believe that there is fire in Hell, I'm going to call your local priest and report you for heresy.*** :)