Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

That's why God is his worst nightmare! You do not want to antagonize Jesus.

Dead corpses cannot be antagonized. Jesus is dead. Jesus was not a god. Even he never claimed to be the Creator.

[One Bad Pig]

God may exist, but definitely not Yahweh.

Naturalism has no place for a God.

[Gary]

Yes, you are. Your arguments here, such as they are, make that abundantly clear.

You misapprehend what I'm saying. Christianity came up with the concepts of hospitals and universities.

Yep, you're an atheist. The least you could do is own up to that.

"Hospitals as healing centers have been part of society since before the first millennium--almost as far back as civilized history takes us! There was even a chain of hospitals (a group of hospitals owned and operated by the same organization) as early as 230 BC. Some of the earliest hospitals existed in ancient Rome in 100 BC as important centers for the emergency care of sick and wounded soldiers."

Source: http://www.vhi.org/hguide_beginning.asp

"As early as 700 B.C., there existed a giant University at Takshashila, located in the northwest region of Bharat (India).

The world's oldest recognized university

Taxila also known as Takshashila, flourished from 600 BC to 500 AD, in the kingdom of Gandhar. 68 subjects were taught at this university and the minimum entry age, ancient texts show, was 16. At one stage, it had 10,500 students including those from Babylon, Greece, Syria, and China. Experienced masters taught the vedas, languages, grammar, philosophy, medicine, surgery, archery, politics, warfare, astronomy, accounts, commerce, documentation, music, dance and other performing arts, futurology, the occult and mystical sciences,complex mathematical calculations. The panel of masters at the university included legendary scholars like Kautilya, Panini, Jivak and Vishnu Sharma. Thus, the concept of a full-fledged university was developed in India."

Source: http://veda.wikidot.com/tip:world-fi...rsity-takshila

Christians often mistake Christianity's accomplishments, forgetting that eastern cultures during much of the last 2,000 years were often much further advanced in science, mathematics, and even medical care than that in Christian Europe.

[Christianbookworm]

Dead corpses cannot be antagonized. Jesus is dead. Jesus was not a god. Even he never claimed to be the Creator.

In a hundred years(considering the average human lifespan), we shall see who was right. Or not.

[Gary]

In a hundred years(considering the average human lifespan), we shall see who was right. Or not.

Yes, if I am right we will both never know as we will both be dead. Dead like any other animal on earth who dies and no longer exists.

If you are right, you will enjoy eternal bliss and pleasure, while I will experience some kind of negative consequence.

But if the fundamentalist Muslim is right, you and I both will burn in the Muslim Hell for all eternity. How many nights do you spend tossing and turning in your bed worrying about your impending eternity in the torments of the Muslim Hell?

But maybe some other exclusivist religion is correct, and you, I, and the Muslim will suffer eternal consequences in that religion's place of punishment for non-believers in its "truths". How often do you worry about that possibility?

And what if the true faith has not yet been discovered? The true Creator God has hidden himself and wants humans to find him and his truths but they have not yet found him? Therefore, all mankind is wrong because they haven't searched hard enough to find this truth and therefore all mankind is doomed to an eternity of torment in the REAL destination for the "wicked"? How often do you worry about that possibility?

So if all these terrible fates are possible, and they are possible as you can't be 100% certain that Islam and other exclusivist religions are false, why aren't you attempting to be a member of all these exclusivists belief systems...just to be safe and cover your bets as you are advising me to do with your supernatural-based belief system?

[One Bad Pig]

"Hospitals as healing centers have been part of society since before the first millennium--almost as far back as civilized history takes us! There was even a chain of hospitals (a group of hospitals owned and operated by the same organization) as early as 230 BC. Some of the earliest hospitals existed in ancient Rome in 100 BC as important centers for the emergency care of sick and wounded soldiers."

Source: http://www.vhi.org/hguide_beginning.asp

Christian hospitals were open to all, not just soldiers.

"As early as 700 B.C., there existed a giant University at Takshashila, located in the northwest region of Bharat (India).

The world's oldest recognized university

Taxila also known as Takshashila, flourished from 600 BC to 500 AD, in the kingdom of Gandhar. 68 subjects were taught at this university and the minimum entry age, ancient texts show, was 16. At one stage, it had 10,500 students including those from Babylon, Greece, Syria, and China. Experienced masters taught the vedas, languages, grammar, philosophy, medicine, surgery, archery, politics, warfare, astronomy, accounts, commerce, documentation, music, dance and other performing arts, futurology, the occult and mystical sciences,complex mathematical calculations. The panel of masters at the university included legendary scholars like Kautilya, Panini, Jivak and Vishnu Sharma. Thus, the concept of a full-fledged university was developed in India."

Source: http://veda.wikidot.com/tip:world-fi...rsity-takshila

Christians often mistake Christianity's accomplishments, forgetting that eastern cultures during much of the last 2,000 years were often much further advanced in science, mathematics, and even medical care than that in Christian Europe.

A Wiki article? I'll take that with a grain of salt. And it subsequently sank into oblivion, so it's not exactly related to today's universities.

ETA: Oh, and Christianity IS an eastern religion.

[Gary]

Christian hospitals were open to all, not just soldiers.

A Wiki article? I'll take that with a grain of salt. And it subsequently sank into oblivion, so it's not exactly related to today's universities.

Moving goal posts??

[One Bad Pig]

Moving goal posts??

You're right, I should have been more specific in my earlier post.

[Gary]

Yes, if I am right we will both never know as we will both be dead. Dead like any other animal on earth who dies and no longer exists.

If you are right, you will enjoy eternal bliss and pleasure, while I will experience some kind of negative consequence.

But if the fundamentalist Muslim is right, you and I both will burn in the Muslim Hell for all eternity. How many nights do you spend tossing and turning in your bed worrying about your impending eternity in the torments of the Muslim Hell?

But maybe some other exclusivist religion is correct, and you, I, and the Muslim will suffer eternal consequences in that religion's place of punishment for non-believers in its "truths". How often do you worry about that possibility?

And what if the true faith has not yet been discovered? The true Creator God has hidden himself and wants humans to find him and his truths but they have not yet found him? Therefore, all mankind is wrong because they haven't searched hard enough to find this truth and therefore all mankind is doomed to an eternity of torment in the REAL destination for the "wicked"? How often do you worry about that possibility?

So if all these terrible fates are possible, and they are possible as you can't be 100% certain that Islam and other exclusivist religions are false, why aren't you attempting to be a member of all these exclusivists belief systems...just to be safe and cover your bets as you are advising me to do with your supernatural-based belief system?

I'm surprised that no one responded to this comment. Do you all agree with my premise that there is no such thing as playing it safe or hedging your bet by believing in the Christian god? In other words, Pascal's Wager has a big hole in it. In order to play it safe, one must believe and follow every exclusivist religion that exists, and this is obviously impossible. One cannot be a good, obedient Muslim and a good, obedient Christian at the same time. You are forced to make a choice. At least one choice and possibly both choices are wrong.

So unless Christians can prove their supernatural belief system is true with 100% certainty, which I don't think even Nick or Stein would assert, it is incorrect for any of you to tell me that I should believe in Yahweh-Jesus to hedge my bets. There is no way to hedge your bets. No one can be 100% certain that his belief system is correct. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any need for faith, would there?

I reject Christianity for the same reason I reject Hinduism, Judaism, Mormonism, and Islam: The evidence for their supernatural claims is just too weak to believe that one of them is the ultimate truth of the universe.

[One Bad Pig]

I'm surprised that no one responded to this comment. Do you all agree with my premise that there is no such thing as playing it safe or hedging your bet by believing in the Christian god? In other words, Pascal's Wager has a big hole in it. In order to play it safe, one must believe and follow every exclusivist religion that exists, and this is obviously impossible. One cannot be a good, obedient Muslim and a good, obedient Christian at the same time. You are forced to make a choice. At least one choice and possibly both choices are wrong.

So unless Christians can prove their supernatural belief system is true with 100% certainty, which I don't think even Nick or Stein would assert, it is incorrect for any of you to tell me that I should believe in Yahweh-Jesus to hedge my bets. There is no way to hedge your bets. No one can be 100% certain that his belief system is correct. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any need for faith, would there?

Hey, thanks for immolating that straw man. No one here is advocating hedging one's bets or Pascal's Wager, as far as I recall.

I reject Christianity for the same reason I reject Hinduism, Judaism, Mormonism, and Islam: The evidence for their supernatural claims is just too weak to believe that one of them is the ultimate truth of the universe.

You keep telling yourself that. You patently reject Christianity in particular with a fervid intensity, because that's the one you were emotionally invested in and feel betrayed by.

[Christianbookworm]

Hey, thanks for immolating that straw man. No one here is advocating hedging one's bets or Pascal's Wager, as far as I recall.

You keep telling yourself that. You patently reject Christianity in particular with a fervid intensity, because that's the one you were emotionally invested in and feel betrayed by.

That's why I called Pascal's wager a thought experiment. It's not meant to be an actual serious argument for Christianity.

[tabibito]

That's why I called Pascal's wager a thought experiment. It's not meant to be an actual serious argument for Christianity.

The reference to Pascal's wager is interesting. IMO - this is where faith comes into play. A person can know with certainty that God exists, but all the factors regarding his attributes (a being who is faithful, loving, forgiving etc) are matters of faith: ultimately it comes down to having faith that God is who he claims to be - and in truth, often times that faith is based on other people's experiences, as at Hebrews 11 for example.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I suspect most people who argue against Pascal's Wager don't understand it because they have never read the Pensees.

[Gary]

I suspect most people who argue against Pascal's Wager don't understand it because they have never read the Pensees.

The point of the discussion is whether or not one should believe in "God" to play it safe.

There is no playing it safe. Even if one believes in Jesus with all his heart and soul he is not safe, because the evidence strongly indicates that Jesus is dead. Some other religion is the "true" Faith...or ALL of them are false (which to me is the most likely case).

So if you are someone who is sitting on the fence; someone who has a lot of doubts about your Christian faith---use your brain and good ol' common sense: This ancient tale is only a superstition. Dead bodies, truly dead and decomposing for three days, DO NOT RISE AGAIN. Don't let threats of punishment after death, like the ones above, from members of this ancient cult scare you.

Walk away from this cult! Be free from the fear of tempermental, vindictive, invisible ghost gods and devils. Remember finally realizing that the Boogeyman under your bed does not exist? Well, the same is true for Zeus, Jupiter, and Yahweh. They are just the inventions of someone's wild imagination. They are not real. Don't let these cult members use out-moded philosophical theories and long-winded theologians' twisted logic to tell you what your brain through common sense knows as truth: It is all a superstition.

[Gary]

Dear folks,

Imagine the following: You wake up tomorrow morning and find your keys missing. You are forced to take the bus to work. When you arrive at work and tell your co-workers about your missing keys, one guy tells you the following: "You should seriously consider that an invisible goblin took your keys last night. My ancient, middle-eastern holy book says that goblins are often the cause of key theft. I can't prove that a goblin walked through your locked door and left with your keys, but you should seriously consider it as a strong possibility, and by faith, believe that my holy book is true regarding key-thieving-invisible-goblins."

Would you give one second's thought to the possibility that an invisible little being snuck into your house last night and made off with your keys? Aren't there many more probable explanations for your missing keys than to even entertain the possibility of a supernatural cause for your missing keys??

Dear folks. Many of you have been taught this ancient tall tale since you were children. I know it seems very real to you. But I strongly encourage you to consider why it is that you would consider the very improbable supernatural reanimation of a first century dead corpse but you wouldn't consider for a second that your keys are missing due to a supernatural cause.

It is just a story. It isn't real.