Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

As I said: I had not seen my friend for some weeks, and had not seen his father for some months. Nor had I had contact with anyone who knew his father in the time since I had last seen my friend. I was aware that his father would soon die, and that it was urgent that my friend return home to spend time with him: hence the phone call.

What do you mean that you were "aware"? Did a voice tell you or did you have a feeling, like a premonition?

You seem to be an honest guy, so if you told me that without any "inside information" about your friend's father's health, you told the friend to go home that weekend or he would never see his father again, I would say that you either had received a divine message from an all-knowing supernatural being (we can't say who, though) or this was a case of INCREDIBLE luck/coincidence.

We will never know for sure which it was. We will each need to make a personal decision based on the probabilities of personally experiencing previous miracles in our lives and experiencing really odd, bizarre coincidences.

[William]

Could a supernatural being have whispered into the doctor's ear or spoken to him internally? Maybe. Can't be proven true or false.
Could the voice that the doctor heard have simply been his own internal thought processes? Maybe. Can't be proven true or false.

Which of the two above possible explanations is most probable in the history of human experience? Answer: It depends on each person personal opinion, but I will bet that most non-Christians in North America and Europe will attribute this "voice" to the doctor himself.

there are many christians in the world who dont believe God whispers in their ear, but only speaks through his word, the bible. many also who do not believe in modern miracles, but believe that they only happened in the ancient times prior to the bible being written and may even cite 1 Cor 12 & 13, paying special emphasis on 1 Cor 13:8 & 9, the perfection they believe is the word of god.

so not all christians identify with modern miracle claims either. they just think God doesnt work that way anymore.

[tabibito]

What do you mean that you were "aware"? Did a voice tell you or did you have a feeling, like a premonition?

It can't be said to be like hearing a voice, and it wasn't a premonition insofar as I understand the term. On that occasion, it was similar in feel to a memory of a time long past coming to mind.

[William]

It can't be said to be like hearing a voice, and it wasn't a premonition insofar as I understand the term. On that occasion, it was similar in feel to a memory of a time long past coming to mind.

sort of like the connection between twins or mother and child, so to speak?

[Gary]

It can't be said to be like hearing a voice, and it wasn't a premonition insofar as I understand the term. On that occasion, it was similar in feel to a memory of a time long past coming to mind.

Then, in my opinion, you either experienced a miracle or a very rare coincidence.

[tabibito]

there are many christians in the world who dont believe God whispers in their ear, but only speaks through his word, the bible. many also who do not believe in modern miracles, but believe that they only happened in the ancient times prior to the bible being written and may even cite 1 Cor 12 & 13, paying special emphasis on 1 Cor 13:8 & 9, the perfection they believe is the word of god.

so not all christians identify with modern miracle claims either. they just think God doesnt work that way anymore.

Oh dear...

[William]

Oh dear...

a female deer?

[tabibito]

Then, in my opinion, you either experienced a miracle or a very rare coincidence.

And then there is the matter of the atheist (who ridiculed Christianity at every opportunity, incidentally) "suddenly" deciding to heed the advice. Even without the information about his attitude to Christianity, that action also needs to be explained. The answer is: track record.

[Adrift]

there are many christians in the world who dont believe God whispers in their ear, but only speaks through his word, the bible. many also who do not believe in modern miracles, but believe that they only happened in the ancient times prior to the bible being written and may even cite 1 Cor 12 & 13, paying special emphasis on 1 Cor 13:8 & 9, the perfection they believe is the word of god.

so not all christians identify with modern miracle claims either. they just think God doesnt work that way anymore.

I think you're confusing the belief in charismatica or the use of the gifts of the spirit in the modern age, versus the belief in miracles and answered prayer in general.

I don't know any Christian from any denomination who absolutely do not believe that miracles and answered prayers are possible today. There may be some Christians someplace out there in this great big world of ours who think that God does not answer prayer or is incapable of miracles in the modern era, but they're surely in the fringe minority.

[William]

I think you're confusing the belief in charismatica or the use of the gifts of the spirit in the modern age, versus the belief in miracles and answered prayer in general.

I don't know any Christian from any denomination who absolutely do not believe that miracles and answered prayers are possible today. There may be some Christians someplace out there in this great big world of ours who think that God does not answer prayer or is incapable of miracles in the modern era, but they're surely in the fringe minority.

well that's true. Now these Christians I am referring do would think that God could heal anyone or could provide something if someone prayed for it. they just think that more often than not the answer is "no," but they do think he can and likely does help in that regard. So I should clarify, they don't think miracles occur like the laying on of hands nor do they believe that God whispers in peoples ears or make the recite prayers beyond their will.

But these same people tend to read everything in the context; that when something good happens, it's from God or that when something bad happens, it's either God testing them, or the Devil trying them, or whatever. And that could be the case too, I guess. It just seems weird to me that God usually helps the heart attack victims who are closest to doctors and defibrillators, and that other sick people are most often healed when receiving the treatments for their condition, and that he also must help non-believers the same way - that or the non-believer's luck is basically a good as the Christian's God.

I'm sure you can at least see where I'm coming from.

[Adrift]

well that's true. Now these Christians I am referring do would think that God could heal anyone or could provide something if someone prayed for it. they just think that more often than not the answer is "no," but they do think he can and likely does help in that regard. So I should clarify, they don't think miracles occur like the laying on of hands nor do they believe that God whispers in peoples ears or make the recite prayers beyond their will.

But these same people tend to read everything in the context; that when something good happens, it's from God or that when something bad happens, it's either God testing them, or the Devil trying them, or whatever. And that could be the case too, I guess. It just seems weird to me that God usually helps the heart attack victims who are closest to doctors and defibrillators, and that other sick people are most often healed when receiving the treatments for their condition, and that he also must help non-believers the same way - that or the non-believer's luck is basically a good as the Christian's God.

I'm sure you can at least see where I'm coming from.

I honestly can't.

We have a number of Christians on this forum who are cessationists, and while they may believe that the charismatic gifts of the spirit are no longer apparent (speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, and the like), that doesn't mean they believe that God has ceased doing miracles in general. While they're unlikely to believe in the efficacy of a faith healing service, I imagine that most of the cessationists on this forum would be fine with the idea of God intervening miraculously in all sorts of manners, including the ways you've mentioned on occasion.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. God is good, and someone who loves God is of course going to give gratitude to God for the good things that happen in their life. Even if God is not the author of whatever good they find in their life, I see no problem with giving God the glory anyhow. Chances are, there are plenty of occasions that Christians ought to give God glory when they don't. If your real complaint is the problem of evil, well that's a whole nother discussion, and one many of us have been over many times here. If you'd like, you can start a new thread on it, and I'm certain plenty of Christians would love to respond if you have an open heart for truly wanting to understand. And no, it's not the case that God only heals people when medical equipment is around. A large number of cases in Keener's volumes highlights cases nowhere near medical equipment. Many of the cases he brings to light are in rural areas of Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and S. America.

[Gary]

And then there is the matter of the atheist (who ridiculed Christianity at every opportunity, incidentally) "suddenly" deciding to heed the advice. Even without the information about his attitude to Christianity, that action also needs to be explained. The answer is: track record.

A miracle...or a very odd, rare, unexplainable coincidence.

[William]

I honestly can't.

We have a number of Christians on this forum who are cessationists, and while they may believe that the charismatic gifts of the spirit are no longer apparent (speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, and the like), that doesn't mean they believe that God has ceased doing miracles in general. While they're unlikely to believe in the efficacy of a faith healing service, I imagine that most of the cessationists on this forum would be fine with the idea of God intervening miraculously in all sorts of manners, including the ways you've mentioned on occasion.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. God is good, and someone who loves God is of course going to give gratitude to God for the good things that happen in their life. Even if God is not the author of whatever good they find in their life, I see no problem with giving God the glory anyhow. Chances are, there are plenty of occasions that Christians ought to give God glory when they don't. If your real complaint is the problem of evil, well that's a whole nother discussion, and one many of us have been over many times here. If you'd like, you can start a new thread on it, and I'm certain plenty of Christians would love to respond if you have an open heart for truly wanting to understand. And no, it's not the case that God only heals people when medical equipment is around. A large number of cases in Keener's volumes highlights cases nowhere near medical equipment. Many of the cases he brings to light are in rural areas of Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and S. America.

I wasnt really trying to say anything derogatory in this. I wasn't really trying to prove or disprove anything, but really just saying how I see it and that it truly does come down to to faith. Maybe God does do it all. I think people should generally be more appreciative for what they have whether religious or not, whether from God or not.

there was nothing there trying to sway or argue anything really, just talk, although i do think most "miracles" I've heard of do happen the way i suggest. the ones that dont can be harder to "verify."

"She turned me into newt... Well, I got better..."

[Gary]

I think you're confusing the belief in charismatica or the use of the gifts of the spirit in the modern age, versus the belief in miracles and answered prayer in general.

I don't know any Christian from any denomination who absolutely do not believe that miracles and answered prayers are possible today. There may be some Christians someplace out there in this great big world of ours who think that God does not answer prayer or is incapable of miracles in the modern era, but they're surely in the fringe minority.

I don't think that either William or I have stated that there are Christians who deny miracles and the power of prayer. I was saying (or at least meant to say) that most Calvinists would not buy into the powers of Pentecostal faith healers and exorcists.

[William]

I honestly can't.

We have a number of Christians on this forum who are cessationists, and while they may believe that the charismatic gifts of the spirit are no longer apparent (speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, and the like), that doesn't mean they believe that God has ceased doing miracles in general. While they're unlikely to believe in the efficacy of a faith healing service, I imagine that most of the cessationists on this forum would be fine with the idea of God intervening miraculously in all sorts of manners, including the ways you've mentioned on occasion.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. God is good, and someone who loves God is of course going to give gratitude to God for the good things that happen in their life. Even if God is not the author of whatever good they find in their life, I see no problem with giving God the glory anyhow. Chances are, there are plenty of occasions that Christians ought to give God glory when they don't. If your real complaint is the problem of evil, well that's a whole nother discussion, and one many of us have been over many times here. If you'd like, you can start a new thread on it, and I'm certain plenty of Christians would love to respond if you have an open heart for truly wanting to understand. And no, it's not the case that God only heals people when medical equipment is around. A large number of cases in Keener's volumes highlights cases nowhere near medical equipment. Many of the cases he brings to light are in rural areas of Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and S. America.

you honestly cant see where one is skeptical of such miraculous claims? is it really that hard to see?

do you really believe that guy's ear grew right back on his head in front of other witnesses' eyes?