Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?
Collapse
X
-
Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
-
Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostThey weren't very satisfactory, were they?
Basically he just calls Jesus a liar, because Jesus said he was going to die and be resurrected. So either he was a false prophet, or Hakeem (and Islam) is wrong.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Yttrium View PostOut of curiosity, since you believe that Jesus is God, how could it be that Jesus is separated from God? I could understand it better if you said that he was separated from the Father in some mysterious way... sort of... although they're supposedly both God.
This is where Jesus having two natures comes in. He is one person. God the Father is another person. So as a person (who is both man and God) He was forsaken by God the Father on the cross. That separation was being forsaken on the account of taking on our sins upon Himself. ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" -- Mark 15:34. [2 Corinthians 5:21.]
". . . But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. . . . " -- Isaiah 59:2. [Now God who is omnipresent cannot not be present everywhere, so the forsaking is the separation.]
Even more interesting, He as God died on the cross. And God never died. Here we have it. His soul died on the cross, shedding His blood. ". . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." -- Isaiah 53:12. And as I personally understand this, the death of His soul took place while He was humanly conscious. And was completed (John 19:28) before His fellowship was restored with God the Father before He as a human physically dead by His own volition [John 10:18] ". . . Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit." -- Luke 23:46. Note, it says He gave up I gave you my understanding of this. (I learned this interpretation [John 19:28, 30] from the teachings of C. S. Lovett M.A., B.D., D.D. many years ago.)
http://www.cslovettbooks.com/April-2015.html<<< this page is temporary for this year.Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2015, 09:41 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostAh. That is an excellent question.
This is where Jesus having two natures comes in. He is one person. God the Father is another person. So as a person (who is both man and God) He was forsaken by God the Father on the cross. That separation was being forsaken on the account of taking on our sins upon Himself. ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" -- Mark 15:34. [2 Corinthians 5:21.]
". . . But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. . . . " -- Isaiah 59:2. [Now God who is omnipresent cannot not be present everywhere, so the forsaking is the separation.]
Even more interesting, He as God died on the cross. And God never died. Here we have it. His soul died on the cross, shedding His blood. ". . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." -- Isaiah 53:12. And as I personally understand this, the death of His soul took place while He was humanly conscious. And was completed (John 19:28) before His fellowship was restored with God the Father before He as a human physically dead by His own volition [John 10:18] ". . . Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit." -- Luke 23:46. Note, it says He gave up I gave you my understanding of this. (I learned this interpretation [John 19:28, 30] from the teachings of C. S. Lovett M.A., B.D., D.D. many years ago.)Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Yttrium View PostYes, well, it makes a heckuva lot more sense to me if I don't assume that Jesus is God. But if you can reconcile all that in your own mind, more power to you. I'm not about to argue against it.
You see, unless this man Jesus was also God, being the Son of God, He would be a sinner being a man. [John 5:18. John 8:24. 1 John 3:5. 2 John 9.]. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Crucifixion. The Baha'i view
Since we had some discussions on the debate forum here about the crucifixion I decided to share an excerpt from a larger book which cites Abdul-Baha interpreting Surih 4 and verse 156 of the Quran, this may not be well known to many Baha'is. It is an excerpt from Star of the West:
The verse to which the author refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:
"And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."
'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:
"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"
Comment
-
...and yet Jesus proved he was in a resurrected body by eating, drinking, and making at least one of the apostles touch his wounds.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
Comment
-
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostCrucifixion. The Baha'i view
Since we had some discussions on the debate forum here about the crucifixion I decided to share an excerpt from a larger book which cites Abdul-Baha interpreting Surih 4 and verse 156 of the Quran, this may not be well known to many Baha'is. It is an excerpt from Star of the West:
The verse to which the author refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:
"And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."
'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:
"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"
That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
-
Desert Berean saying "Jesus proved he was in a resurrected body by eating, drinking, and making at least one of the apostles touch his wounds" is not true unless proven in line with the conditions of the resurrected body in the Bible. For example, had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples on the way to Emmaus should have recognised Jesus easily as they were walking, talking and eating with Jesus because the resurrected will be in glory as per 1 Corinthians 15:43 that will shine like the sun as Matthew 13:43 says "the righteous shall shine like the sun in their Father kingdom"
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hakeem View PostDesert Berean saying "Jesus proved he was in a resurrected body by eating, drinking, and making at least one of the apostles touch his wounds" is not true unless proven in line with the conditions of the resurrected body in the Bible. For example, had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples on the way to Emmaus should have recognised Jesus easily as they were walking, talking and eating with Jesus because the resurrected will be in glory as per 1 Corinthians 15:43 that will shine like the sun as Matthew 13:43 says "the righteous shall shine like the sun in their Father kingdom"Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
Comment
-
Mossrose writing " The executioners had crucified thousands of people by the time of Jesus' death. They certainly weren't too stupid to not recognize a dead person when they saw one, and that is without the medical knowledge we boast of now" is refuted by the fact that after all trial Jesus received by the Roman Soldiers who were experts in killing, Pilate was surprised to hear Jesus died according to Mark 15:44 because according to Christian Commentaries at biblehub.com on Mark 15:44 that is common for the victim of crucifixion to live upto days.
Comment
-
Cerebrum123 writing "He's back, and still can't process that Pilate being surprised that Jesus died so early would not necessarily mean that Jesus did not die as stated" is not true. Had Jesus been dead according to Pilate, there would have not been a need for confirmation by the centurion as per Mark 15:45. The truth is Pilate doubted Jesus death as in Mark 15:44, so Pilate requested for confirmation and after confirmation, Jesus body was given.
Cerebrum123 writing "He also brings back the "lingering death" comment" is because it is true* that crucifxion is so that took days to kill a person. This is admitted by Christian commentaries on Mark 15:44 at biblehub.com.* Such slow lingering death was the driver behind Pilate surprise to hear that Jesus was dead.
Comment
widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Comment